[Codo]

So, to summarize your point:

If you bid 4♣ over 3 ♥ and they do not double you win 1 imp for -100 opposite -140?
In the meanwhile you take the risk, that someone can double or raise competetive to 4 Heart for a loss of 10 imps.

So, you really win if East is willing to bid 3 ♠ over 3 ♥ and they find their spade game. But how likely is this over the bidding so far? 0%?

I think you won the board with 2 NT and I agree that it was hard for them to back in after that. But 4 club was still wrong. (IMHO)

[ArtK78]

Codo, on 2012-November-27, 10:22, said:

So, to summarize your point:

If you bid 4♣ over 3 ♥ and they do not double you win 1 imp for -100 opposite -140?
In the meanwhile you take the risk, that someone can double or raise competetive to 4 Heart for a loss of 10 imps.

So, you really win if East is willing to bid 3 ♠ over 3 ♥ and they find their spade game. But how likely is this over the bidding so far? 0%?

I think you won the board with 2 NT and I agree that it was hard for them to back in after that. But 4 club was still wrong. (IMHO)

No, you don't have my point at all.

I asked whether the 4♣ call made sense. I never argued that it was right, just that it worked.

I think that you are underestimating the chance that the opps will find 4♠ after East backed into the auction with 3♥. Perhaps not on the actual hand, but if you change a spade to a heart in the East hand and a heart to a spade in the West hand, it might very well happen.

[Codo]

We may change some other cards in the hands- and they have clear doubles or clear 4 ♥ bids...

And how likely is it that East- who had no bid over 1 NT and hears his partner balance with 3 ♥ (after passing 2 NT!) will bid 3 ♠ now?

I guess you still think that your 4 ♣ was a good choice. I still disagree. We can life with that, can't we?

[ArtK78]

Codo, on 2012-November-28, 03:14, said:

We may change some other cards in the hands- and they have clear doubles or clear 4 ♥ bids...

And how likely is it that East- who had no bid over 1 NT and hears his partner balance with 3 ♥ (after passing 2 NT!) will bid 3 ♠ now?

I guess you still think that your 4 ♣ was a good choice. I still disagree. We can life with that, can't we?

Our only disagreement is that you seem to think that I said that bidding 4♣ was right. It appealed to me at the time, and I made the bid. I never said anywhere in this thread that it was the right bid. Only that it worked.

If they have a clear 4♥ bid, then it doesn't matter whether I bid 4♣ or not. The big upside to 4♣ is when they can make 4♠ and they can't find it when I bid 4♣. That was the case here, although it is not clear that they would have bid spades if I had passed 3♥.

As for clear doubles of 4♣, that is unlikely since we have at least 9 clubs between us, so their trump holding cannot be very strong. To quote Billy Eisenberg after his client doubled the opps because she had a lot of points (leading to a making doubled contract), "You double with trumps, not with points!"

[Codo]

OK Art, at least I got it. It worked, I cannot argue against that.
Luckily we are all better then this client, we often know when to double even without trumps and when not.

[ArtK78]

On reflection, I believe I got the quote wrong. It was something like "With trumps you double, with points you bid!"

[FrancesHinden]

I'm most confused by East's resolute silence. He seems to have passed over a mini with a 5-5 in the pointed suits and some high cards.

[lamford]

ArtK78, on 2012-November-21, 12:50, said:

2NT - weak minor one-suiter, invitational major two suiter or forcing minor suit 5431

I like the methods, but if you play them, should you not bid 3S on a hand like this (pre-emptive in either minor, prefer spades to hearts, or good minor fit, depending on which hand-type partner has)? Just bidding 3♣ does not sound the most efficient.

[ArtK78]

lamford, on 2012-November-30, 11:17, said:

I like the methods, but if you play them, should you not bid 3S on a hand like this (pre-emptive in either minor, prefer spades to hearts, or good minor fit, depending on which hand-type partner has)? Just bidding 3♣ does not sound the most efficient.

A 3♠ response to 1NT is preemptive in SPADES ONLY.

A 2NT response includes a forcing hand with 3/1 in the majors and 5/4 in the minors as one of its options.