[32519]

I’m looking for ideas from others for alternate uses for the following high level opening bids:
1. 2NT
2. 3NT
3. 4♣
4. 4♦
5. 4♥
6. 4♠
7. 4NT
8. 5♣

I'm not convinced that my current agreements make optimal use of these high level opening bids. By nature, all of them are pre-emptive. But what or how do others use them? Hopefully I will find something more effective than what I am currently doing.

Thanks in advance.

[ahydra]

This question isn't easy to answer without knowing your basic system. e.g. I might suggest using 2NT=both minors, PRE but you may already have a bid for it.

ahydra

[32519]

My guess is that many bid 8-card suits and 5-11 HCP on the 4-level, which is what I am doing now. The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria is low, standing at 0.08%. Some play 4♣ as Namyats but then you lose a natural 4♣ pre-empt.

I read in a different thread someone suggesting to put an 8-card major pre-empt through the 3NT opening bid (I think it was Justin who suggested this). Then I still have the 4♣ bid available for something else. I have now also freed up the 4♥ and 4♠ bid to be used for something else. So what would be a useful bid for the vacant available bid now? Sure it will be something that has an extremely low probability of occurring. But if it's there, then why not use it?

[kayin801]

 32519, on 2012-November-07, 10:45, said:

My guess is that many bid 8-card suits and 5-11 HCP on the 4-level, which is what I am doing now. The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria is low, standing at 0.08%. Some play 4♣ as Namyats but then you lose a natural 4♣ pre-empt.

Not to hijack but I can't believe that you pick up a hand that fits this criteria less than 1 in 1000 tries.

[PhilKing]

 32519, on 2012-November-07, 10:45, said:

My guess is that many bid 8-card suits and 5-11 HCP on the 4-level

Some beginners are taught this, but it's not what it shows at any reasonable level.

[32519]

 kayin801, on 2012-November-07, 11:16, said:

Not to hijack but I can't believe that you pick up a hand that fits this criteria less than 1 in 1000 tries.

 PhilKing, on 2012-November-07, 11:32, said:

Some beginners are taught this, but it's not what it shows at any reasonable level.

That's what I'm trying to find out. What do others use the 4-level for? What do you use it for?

[PhilKing]

 32519, on 2012-November-07, 12:44, said:

That's what I'm trying to find out. What do others use the 4-level for? What do you use it for?

Well 4M is just natural for most people, but is far more flexible and wide ranging at higher levels than you imagine. For instance, John Holland opened 4♥ first game all on ♠4 ♥AKJ986 ♦Q8732 ♣7 against Versace/Sementa in European Championships a few years ago. Townsend did it non vul first seat on ♠Q6 ♥AKJT83 ♦2 ♣Q965. I'm not suggesting you go that far, but any 7-4 shape is an auto 4-level opener even vulnerable and a lot of 7321 shapes are fine as well. Non-vul 65s with a good 6-card suit are definite contenders.

I don't play it myself, but 3NT showing a hand too good to open 4M is very popular amongst the top American players.

[barmar]

My estimate is that at least 90% of ACBL players use 4x to show an 8-card suit preempt, it's hardly a beginner-only treatment. Advanced players will preempt more aggressively, and I've seen it done with 6 and 7 card suits. But I don't think I've ever run into anyone using them for anything other than natural preempts.

[hrothgar]

Here is the basics of the system that I currently use

5 minor openings

Undisciplined 5 level preempt
Typically a strong eight or nine card suit
Could be a 7-4 pattern

4NT Opening

An excellent eight or nine card minor
Sound playing values for the five-level (9+ playing tricks)
No more than one loser in any suit

4 Level Preempts

Natural, pretty standard

3NT Opening

Good 4 Level Preempt in either major

3M Openings

Natural, undisplined

3D Opening

Disciplined 3 level preempt (two of the top three honors)
No side suit Ace or King

3♣ Opening

Both minors

2NT Opening

Undisciplined three level preempt in either minor

[relknes]

For me, 4♣ and 4♦ show a 5 loser hand with a 7+ suit vulnerable, or a 6 loser hand with a 7+ suit non-vulnerable (that don't qualify for a gambling 3N and don't have 11+ HCP). With 1 less loser, I would bid 5♣ or 5♦.
4♥ and 4♠ show a simmilar hand type, but I won't preempt at the 5 level, and a self-sustaining 6 card suit is ok.
3N is a "gambling 3N" showing a solid 7+ minor and no outside A or K.
2N, if you want to use it as a preempt, could show 5-5 in the minors and a hand with 6 or fewer losers vulnerable or 7 or fewer losers non-vulnerable, with 0-10 HCP.

[32519]

 32519, on 2012-November-07, 10:45, said:

My guess is that many bid 8-card suits and 5-11 HCP on the 4-level, which is what I am doing now. The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria is low, standing at 0.08%. Some play 4♣ as Namyats but then you lose a natural 4♣ pre-empt.

 kayin801, on 2012-November-07, 11:16, said:

Not to hijack but I can't believe that you pick up a hand that fits this criteria less than 1 in 1000 tries.

This was a typo error. The probability is 0.08% for a specific suit. As there are four suits, the probability is 0.32%, less than once in every 250 hands.

[Vampyr]

 PhilKing, on 2012-November-07, 12:54, said:

I don't play it myself, but 3NT showing a hand too good to open 4M is very popular amongst the top American players.

It's not unheard of here; I play this and know of a few others.

I also play:

4NT specific Aces
5NT 1-loser hand, void in both majors

And if truth be told, I need to confirm with my regular partner, but we probably play 5M as the old-fashioned looking for top honours.

[Vampyr]

You can start from 2♥, 2♠ or 2NT to show, respectively, 3-, 2- and 1-under preempts. I'm not sure what actual purpose this would serve, but it would be fun. This can be combined with a Multi or with 2-level suit openers showing a weak hand with the next suit up or some strong option.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2012-November-07, 12:57, said:

But I don't think I've ever run into anyone using them for anything other than natural preempts.

Except for South African Texas.

[32519]

Regarding the 2NT opening bid, these are the choices that I am currently aware of (no doubt there are plenty of others as well):
1. A standard strong balanced hand promising 20-21 HCP. In this thread Too Many 2NT Contracts are Going Down, after going down enough times myself, partner and I are starting to look for some other use for the 2NT bid.
2. 5/5 in the minors and 5-10 HCP. I’m not a fan of this opening as it is just too easy to defend against. Also it tells the opponents the hand layout making it easy for them to bid and make thin games in either major.
3. 5/5 in the majors and 8-12 HCP as played by Blue Team Club. The probability of being dealt a hand which meets this criteria stands at 0.43%. The biggest criticism that I have heard against this method is: “Why pre-empt your own side when you hold both majors?” The answer given is that, a) with 5/5 in the majors it is normal to open with 1♠ and then repeat the ♥ suit twice to show the 5/5 holding, and b) you want to avoid partner bidding 3NT when your hand is low in HCP.
4. Undisciplined 3-level pre-empt in either minor.
5. T-Rex (Martin Reid/Peter Newell from New Zealand) use it to show 2-9 HCP and a 6-card ♣ suit.

Does anyone know of other uses for a 2NT opening? Once I know what all my choices are I can try something different to a standard 20-21 HCP balanced hand.

[Vampyr]

Don't forget that you will still need a way to show a 20-21 balanced hand. You will likely get to 2NT with these, so you will not solve your stated problem.

[gwnn]

5H+5m for 2NT.

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2012-November-08, 00:13, said:

Don't forget that you will still need a way to show a 20-21 balanced hand. You will likely get to 2NT with these, so you will not solve your stated problem.

We’ve moved the 20-21 HCP balanced hands into our 1♣ bid which is forcing (Polish Club style). 1♦ shows 0-4 HCP. Anything else shows 5+ HCP. After a suit response 2NT (or 3NT) depending on whether the suit response was on the 1 level or the 2 level, now shows this hand type. The big downside is that 3NT is often played from the wrong side of the table. The upside is after a negative 1♦ response we are now playing in 1NT making versus 2NT going down 1. The trade-off is something we have decided to continue with until the scales start tipping towards the negative side.

[32519]

 gwnn, on 2012-November-08, 01:19, said:

5H+5m for 2NT.

What HCP range have you assigned to the bid? I'm guessing 5-10 HCP?

What do you do with ♠ and a 5-card minor? With 10-11 HCP, using the Rule of 20 is easy. But what do you do with, say, 5-9 HCP and 5X♠ and 5Xm?

[gwnn]

 32519, on 2012-November-08, 02:51, said:

What HCP range have you assigned to the bid? I'm guessing 5-10 HCP?

Yes, 5-9 or so.

 32519, on 2012-November-08, 02:51, said:

What do you do with ♠ and a 5-card minor? With 10-11 HCP, using the Rule of 20 is easy. But what do you do with, say, 5-9 HCP and 5X♠ and 5Xm?

Nothing special. You can open 2S or pass. With hearts you get to bother them a bit. It is the smaller cousin of 3NT=6H, 5+m, weakish.

Note that I live in the Netherlands so it is my contractual obligation to play 2D Multi and 2M Muiderberg and we chose to inlcude 20-21 bal in 2D and 2NT as 5-5 minors weak or very strong. I'm not a big fan but also not a big sceptic. So I don't actually practice what I preach but I stand by it morally.