[wyman]

So I've had a lot of discussion over the last few days (in more than one partnership) about cue-bids that set trumps. So, I have some follow-up questions to make sure we have (rather -- "make sure we end up with" -- since we clearly don't currently have) a sound understanding:

Example 1:

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Example 2 (in a context where cheapest minor is 2nd neg):

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(1) First and foremost, do we agree that 4C in each auction above is a cuebid?

(2) On auction 1, suppose responder holds AQ9xxx / -- / xx / AKxxx or AQ9xxx / -- / x / AKJxxx.
Is the normal thing to do just bid a forcing 3S?
(2a) opener's followups to 3S I assume are cuebids, so can I bid 5C/6C naturally after opener re-rebids 4H?
(2b) Are there even any/many hands where opener would rebid 4H and not 3N?

(3) On auction 2, typically the agreement is that bypassing 2D shows a good suit (meaning that it meets some honor requirements, maybe 2 of 3).
So responder, holding like x/QJx/xx/A10xxxxx can't bid 3C over 2C (honors), 3C over 2S (dbl neg), can't bid 4C over 3H (Q). Of course, it's not crazy that 6C is the right spot here. So what gives?

(4) Do you have any meta-rules that cover when a new suit is a cuebid setting trump and when the new suit is natural? AORN, the best I've got is "Don't look for a fit at the 4-level when partner is odds-on to be short in that suit." Basically it's "it's a cue when it's obviously a cue." Until it's not, of course...

Any help appreciated as always.

[dbsboy]

I think this is a very good discussion point as many players do not have thorough discussions on this.

1)4C is a cuebid. I think 4C being natural has its upsides definitely, but it doesn't come up as often as cuebid, hence less useful.

2)I would rebid 3S a lot of times. However, like AQ9XXX/-/X/AKJXXX, I might bid 6C directly. In the first example probably 3S is sufficient.

3)When I have more length in a suit, I might stretch a bit and bid the suit directly (for example, AJXXXX)...not sure if this is a good agreement...

After 2C-2D-2S, I play 2NT = bal (not 2nd neg), or clubs; 3C = 2nd neg; 3D /3H = natural.
After 2C-2D-2S-2NT, transfers apply. So 3S means S+C.

I also look forward to the forthcoming responses here.

[BunnyGo]

<bump>

I'm interested in hearing this too (as one of the partners). I agreed that the second auction had 4♣ as a cuebid and that with ATxxxx of clubs suck it up and bid them first (sigh).

The first auction was more problematic. It seemed like the idea that "partner is odds-on to be short" is less likely, since he's only promised one long suit, and could easily have 3 card support. It struck me that this was really killing the minor suits a bit much when partner has a 2 suited hand and wants to show it.

[phil_20686]

If you like to play a double negative, I would usually advocate 2c-2h as a double negative immediately. You can easily integrate a double negative into kokish, in that with strong balanced hands partner basicly knows just to bid 3N or a NF 2N.

I do not think playing 2N as a second negative without spade support is a great idea, responder at some point should be able to show his suits. It might be important for partner to know that you have a side five or 6 card suit if he is looking for a slam.

Essentially, I dont like your methods. For me 4c is a cue because 3c over 2s would be natural, with a suit insufficient for 3c/2c but not so few values as to have an immediate 2h bid.

I suspect that the lack of interest in this thread indicates that these are not popular methods, but what do I know eh

[phil_20686]

PS: The first auction is a cue bid just on frequency grounds. The number of times that you have a second suit that you are interested in introducing at the 4 level, while neither 4M is making, is pretty rare.

The most problematic hand type for these auctions is not the hands with two long suits, but the hands with 4s and longer minor, which is its own kind of problem: As an extreme example, I think its quite normal to bid one spade with Axxx - xx AQTxxxx in a 2/1 set up? If you are prepared to GF with this hand, edit honour structure to taste. These are the hands where the cue bid really costs you.

[dboxley]

phil_20686, on 2012-March-05, 05:30, said:

If you like to play a double negative, I would usually advocate 2c-2h as a double negative immediately. You can easily integrate a double negative into kokish, in that with strong balanced hands partner basicly knows just to bid 3N or a NF 2N.

I do not think playing 2N as a second negative without spade support is a great idea, responder at some point should be able to show his suits. It might be important for partner to know that you have a side five or 6 card suit if he is looking for a slam.

Essentially, I dont like your methods. For me 4c is a cue because 3c over 2s would be natural, with a suit insufficient for 3c/2c but not so few values as to have an immediate 2h bid.

I suspect that the lack of interest in this thread indicates that these are not popular methods, but what do I know eh

Once you've tried 2H dbl neg you'll never go back to anything else. It makes this hand a breeze to bid. I'm frankly surprised that anyone still plays 3C or 2NT 2nd neg.

[wyman]

dboxley, on 2012-March-05, 06:25, said:

Once you've tried 2H dbl neg you'll never go back to anything else. It makes this hand a breeze to bid. I'm frankly surprised that anyone still plays 3C or 2NT 2nd neg.

I'd be surprised that anyone plays 2N double negative -- in fact I hadn't heard of it until Phil was talking about it a few posts ago; certainly we're not playing that way.

But I've played 2H dbl neg, and I'm not crazy about it. And I know there are definitely WC pairs that play 2C strong, 2H nat, so I'm not really sure I agree with your post at all.

[BunnyGo]

phil_20686, on 2012-March-05, 05:34, said:

PS: The first auction is a cue bid just on frequency grounds. The number of times that you have a second suit that you are interested in introducing at the 4 level, while neither 4M is making, is pretty rare.

The hands where 4M makes on a no fit and 6m makes on a fit are not as rare (the no fit making implies some points, so a fit can be worth a trick or two more). I'm still not convinced about this auction.

[phil_20686]

BunnyGo, on 2012-March-05, 14:56, said:

The hands where 4M makes on a no fit and 6m makes on a fit are not as rare (the no fit making implies some points, so a fit can be worth a trick or two more). I'm still not convinced about this auction.

I think the relevant outcomes are:

(1) Game in a minor better than game in a major/3N.
(2) Slam in a minor possible.
(3) Slam in a major possible.


I just think (1)+(2) << (3) in frequency, and I do not feel that its particularly controversial.

Even when (1) is true you have to sort out between the hands with 4M longer minor, and the hands that are 55 65 56 etc, which is seldom easy.

[phil_20686]

wyman, on 2012-March-05, 12:26, said:

I'd be surprised that anyone plays 2N double negative -- in fact I hadn't heard of it until Phil was talking about it a few posts ago; certainly we're not playing that way.

But I've played 2H dbl neg, and I'm not crazy about it. And I know there are definitely WC pairs that play 2C strong, 2H nat, so I'm not really sure I agree with your post at all.

I dont understand this your OP seems to indicate that you play 3c as a double negative after 2c-2d-2s, with 2N = natural, which is surely inferior to playing 2N as a double negative with 3c natural, as showing a natural club suit is sure to be much more important than showing a "naturally No trumpy" hand. I mean, better than either is to play 2N = clubs and 3c = double negative so partner can right side 3N opposite the negative I would guess.

I think a double negative at once is useful, but there are complications, particularly if you want to play kokish. In the end, I am not that sure that 2c openers are a particularly fruitful area for system, it seem hard to do a lot better than 2d = relay other = natural, and it would not surprise me to see almost any combination of agreements combining 2d relay, double negatives and kokish. I would imagine system after a 2c opener matters fewer than once in every 100 boards.

[wyman]

2N as a negative wrongsides NT which is far more likely to be your final contract than clubs after 2C-2D-2S when responder has a bust.

[phil_20686]

wyman, on 2012-March-05, 20:33, said:

2N as a negative wrongsides NT which is far more likely to be your final contract than clubs after 2C-2D-2S when responder has a bust.

I appreciate this, so why does a 2N bid not show clubs?

[wyman]

Phil, I definitely appreciate the replies. Maybe we can take the discussion of followups to 2C to a new thread [I didn't mean for my one silly example auction to be such a distraction], because I'd really like to get back to the initial question:

When is a new suit at the 4-level a cuebid (other than when suit agreement is already established)?

[phil_20686]

wyman, on 2012-March-06, 09:24, said:

When is a new suit at the 4-level a cuebid (other than when suit agreement is already established)?

In abstract: when its more useful than a natural bid would be.

In practice: when it feels like it should be a cue...

Sorry not sure I have anything helpful to say as a general rule. Sometimes its obvious, and sometimes it just "feels like a cue" even though its not that obvious. For example, passed hands cannot have a suit good enough to be worth introducing at the 4 level on auction (1). Any hand with that amount of shape and power would have opened.

[FrancesHinden]

The auctions 1H-1S-3H and 1D-1M-3D are difficult, because there are two things that responder might want to do i.e. agree partner's suit in a slam-interested manner, and show a two-suiter of their own.
We've discussed these, and play that

1H-1S-3H-4m is a cue for hearts, because that is both a common thing to want to do and you have no other way to agree hearts. We play 1H-1S-3H-3S-3NT-4m as natural with a big two-suiter (if opener bids 4H over 3S, we won't have a minor suit fit because opener has lots and lots of hearts).

but

1D-1M-3D-4C is natural, because you can raise 3d to 4D is a forcing manner.

I don't play your methods after a 2C opening, but given the agreements specified, 4C is natural because responder has not been able to bid them naturally yet.

Here's another difficult 2C auction playing Kokish:
2C - 2D - 2H* - 2S - 3H - 4C

we have agreed that as agreeing hearts (and showing length in clubs, but that's just our style). We have some protection because responder does something other than 2S with a 6-card minor to one honour, but it does mean that responder can't look for a 5-3 minor suit fit.