[MrAce]

phil_20686, on 2012-January-31, 10:44, said:

Even if you have Qxx declarer could rise with the K and block the suit, then knock out the spade ace stranding the heart suit, so he figures he needs partner to have a some club tricks. Hardly an unreasonable construction.

No, if declarer plays K to block the suit, you unblock your Q. I think u didnt read my first post, there are only 13 hearts in deck. Declarer can not have KJx ♥.

For North's point of view (if he has ATxxxx) declarer has either KQJx or Qx. I would expect declarer to false card from KQJx to convince N to continue ♥.

To me N shd not have AJxxxx either, he shd continue the suit, bidding 2NT with Hx in a major is very common over multi 2♦, some people can do it even with Jx (me for example), some dont even require a stopper in both majors, they just wanna describe their 17 hcp balanced hand right away.

I don't know if thats a hint for N, but he didnt DBL 3♥ bid, eventhough his suit was obviously ♥ if he wanted it badly he could have, South still led ♥2. If i was north i wouldnt convince myself too easily that pd led his stiff while he has a good ♣ suit and that if we play ♣ now we can set them. But thats probably just me. I agree declarer is more likely to hold 4♥ than 2 but otoh If pd has 3♥ i have a decent chance to defeat 3NT, if pd has stiff we may still defeat but our chances are extremely shrinked.

[phil_20686]

MrAce, on 2012-January-31, 11:24, said:

No, if declarer plays K to block the suit, you unblock your Q. I think u didnt read my first post, there are only 13 hearts in deck. Declarer can not have KJx ♥.

For North's point of view (if he has ATxxxx) declarer has either KQJx or Qx. I would expect declarer to false card from KQJx to convince N to continue ♥.

To me N shd not have AJxxxx either, he shd continue the suit, bidding 2NT with Hx in a major is very common over multi 2♦, some people can do it even with Jx (me for example), some dont even require a stopper in both majors, they just wanna describe their 17 hcp balanced hand right away.

I don't know if thats a hint for N, but he didnt DBL 3♥ bid, eventhough his suit was obviously ♥ if he wanted it badly he could have, South still led ♥2. If i was north i wouldnt convince myself too easily that pd led his stiff while he has a good ♣ suit and that if we play ♣ now we can set them. But thats probably just me. I agree declarer is more likely to hold 4♥ than 2 but otoh If pd has 3♥ i have a decent chance to defeat 3NT, if pd has stiff we may still defeat but our chances are extremely shrinked.

I was giving the problem for south when it comes to his carding. He doesnt know where the J of hearts is, if he decides declarer has it and thats why partner did not continue, then unblocking the heart Q will not help. Lamford was suggesting no experts would play smith peters on the club - I was pointing out that it will often be easy for south to envisage hands where its wrong for partner to continue hearts. Even if south can work it out, he must be confident that both he and his partner can work out that it is actually right to continue hearts, before he can give up smith peters.

If there are layouts that look the same to either player where north would be unsure about the heart position, or south would be unsure about the heart position, then smith peters should still apply. I didnt mean that it makes a difference on this layout. Obviously, if I knew where all the cards were I would choose not to smith peters now, and give a different signal in clubs, but that is not the real problem the defender is faced with.

[MrAce]

phil_20686, on 2012-January-31, 12:01, said:

I was giving the problem for south when it comes to his carding. He doesnt know where the J of hearts is, if he decides declarer has it and thats why partner did not continue, then unblocking the heart Q will not help.

South knows N has 6♥, he sees 2 ♥ on table, and if he has Qxx that leaves declarer with only 2♥ with one of them being played on first ♥ trick, thus declarer can not have ♥J when/if 2nd ♥ is played at some point either by pd or declarer himself.

I wasnt trying to interfere with the debate between u and him, i was mereley trying to correct the ♥ situation.

[Poky]

phil_20686, on 2012-January-31, 10:44, said:

Don't be a clown lamford, you are assuming that west is 100% sure his partner doesn't have a re-entry. Plenty of experts would not regard this as an exception to the smith peters rule.

No real expert plays smith echo when is it time to give attitude in a side suit. Maybe you understand mechanics of this convention (btw, used when declarer plays some neutral suit), but you do not understand bridge.

[han]

If you finesse before playing the spades, you still make if it is wrong and hearts are blocked. Given that the opponents are experts, why don't we play this way? If the spades split 3-3, north probably has a singleton diamond anyway.

[MrAce]

han, on 2012-February-01, 07:41, said:

If you finesse before playing the spades, you still make if it is wrong and hearts are blocked. Given that the opponents are experts, why don't we play this way? If the spades split 3-3, north probably has a singleton diamond anyway.

MrAce, on 2012-January-30, 00:53, said:

.....Perhaps declarer should not have tested ♠ suit at the first place, under these assumptions.

Yup.

Here is another case for finesse; If we believe that N had AJxxxx ♥ and thought we had KQxx and played a ♣ from T9x, a careless North may continue to make a mistake.

How ?

Simply he may think ♣8 was from KJ8, and he may plan to score 1♥+♦Q that he won+2♣+1 good ♠ that he knows his pd has. I said careless North because if that was the case declarer would safely give a ♠ to South and score 2♥+4♠+1♣+2♦.

[phil_20686]

Poky, on 2012-January-31, 21:21, said:

No real expert plays smith echo when is it time to give attitude in a side suit. Maybe you understand mechanics of this convention (btw, used when declarer plays some neutral suit), but you do not understand bridge.

I honestly think its quite delusional to think that the weak two opener will never need to diagnose the heart position here. Suppose these were the layouts,

---

---

In both cases north with switch to the club ten, in both cases declarer will win and play a spade to the ace. North must decide whether to continue hearts or continue clubs. You do not wish him to be guessing if this is a smith peters or attitude situation. It can be your agreement that if partner wins your lead and switches at trick two, then smith peters is off. It is a sensible agreement. But it is also sensible to just play smith peters all the time. On routine hands like these both will work. What will not work is if north has to work out whether south things that this is or is not a situation where smith peters applies.

[whereagles]

Does this have a solution?

[lamford]

phil_20686, on 2012-February-02, 06:04, said:

In both cases north with switch to the club ten

I assume you mean "will", but in the second example you give, I would not lead the singleton heart, as a club looks a good alternative. And for both examples, I would not open a weak two or multi with two aces. Mind you a very strong player did so on Axxxxx none A10xx xxx last night in the London Super League, so what do I know?

I have never encountered Smith Peters when the defence switch at trick two, as I think attitude in the new suit is too important.

[MrAce]

phil_20686, on 2012-February-02, 06:04, said:

I honestly think its quite delusional to think that the weak two opener will never need to diagnose the heart position here. Suppose these were the layouts,

---

---

In both cases north with switch to the club ten, in both cases declarer will win and play a spade to the ace. North must decide whether to continue hearts or continue clubs. You do not wish him to be guessing if this is a smith peters or attitude situation. It can be your agreement that if partner wins your lead and switches at trick two, then smith peters is off. It is a sensible agreement. But it is also sensible to just play smith peters all the time. On routine hands like these both will work. What will not work is if north has to work out whether south things that this is or is not a situation where smith peters applies.

In first hand Declarer would have to drop ♥J at trick one (he didnt in the OP) , on hand 2 it may not be clear for everyone but i wld expect a good declarer false card of his choice and pretend like he has KQ KJ QJ doubleton ♥

[Poky]

phil_20686, on 2012-February-02, 06:04, said:

I honestly think its quite delusional to think that the weak two opener will never need to diagnose the heart position here. Suppose these were the layouts,

---

---

Wrong.

In the first case partner will return a heart, because:
a) overcaller could hold KQ (or KJ) tight;
b) logic of leads;
c) restricted choice principle.

In the second case partner will never lead a heart because it is so obvious club is the lead with the best expected value, far ahead the heart lead.