[mycroft]

Well, I'm not sure of the phrasing above, but "if you set all the contracts you double, you're not doubling nearly enough" *does* make sense. What percentage? Which ones? Well, yeah, that's another story.

I've suggested to newer players that (at least where they don't have teammates to annoy), "for the next month, if you're thinking about balancing, balance. If you're thinking about (penalty) doubling, double. You will go for numbers, and you will let through numbers. At the end of the month, review your results, and see if you can work out which of your 'maybes' were right, and why (even the ones that 'didn't work', if it was 'right, but bad play/defence'), and which ones were mistakes and why." But that's not "bridge is a bidder's game."

While I'm on that, can I put "don't know how to Alert, don't know how to Announce, don't know what not to Announce, and definitely don't know how to handle 'partner misinformed'" on the list? Maybe lump them in with the "don't know how to explain/don't want to explain fully" crowd?

[kenberg]

 mycroft, on 2013-August-06, 17:49, said:

I've suggested to newer players that (at least where they don't have teammates to annoy), "for the next month, if you're thinking about balancing, balance. If you're thinking about (penalty) doubling, double. You will go for numbers, and you will let through numbers. At the end of the month, review your results, and see if you can work out which of your 'maybes' were right, and why (even the ones that 'didn't work', if it was 'right, but bad play/defence'), and which ones were mistakes and why." But that's not "bridge is a bidder's game."

Sure, that's good advice. It involves looking over the hands, and tryng to decide if there were clues that might have said bid here, don't bid there. it's what makes the game interesting.

[barmar]

 Antrax, on 2013-August-06, 10:42, said:

There's something that really irritates in some Bridge discussions, though it's a lot more common over at Bridgewinners: there are some people who seem compelled to spout bridge memes. They go into any discussion looking for opportunities to use expressions like "the boss suit", "beer card", "it's a bidder's game" etc,

I suspect that when novices start learning the lingo, they look for any opportunity to use it so they can feel like they're part of the community. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to the bridge world -- every specialized community has its jargon, and spouting it is the way new entrants declare membership.

The problem, as you say, is that some of them overdo it. Trying to force a meme where it doesn't really belong marks them as not really an insider yet. I think it's a phase that many people can't help going through.

[mike777]

 barmar, on 2013-August-07, 00:27, said:

I suspect that when novices start learning the lingo, they look for any opportunity to use it so they can feel like they're part of the community. I don't think this phenomenon is limited to the bridge world -- every specialized community has its jargon, and spouting it is the way new entrants declare membership.

The problem, as you say, is that some of them overdo it. Trying to force a meme where it doesn't really belong marks them as not really an insider yet. I think it's a phase that many people can't help going through.

in the real world knowing the words of jargon is often the most important point....in getting a job....I know that sounds sad but true.

As it turns out one can always debate the real...true...best meaning of the jargon...but you still got to know the words...

I mean look at bridge jargon....

and that seems true of computer jargon...know the words..debate the true/best meaning later...

[Vampyr]

Well, there is jargon and there is babyish slang. "Dive" for sacrifice is one which I don't even understand, since we're bidding higher, not lower. Another kind of annoying thing is when people use those weird colour-codes for vulnerability, because they are ambiguous; if you say "red", does that mean that we're vulnerable or does it mean that we are at unfavourable vulnerability?

[blackshoe]

If someone says "red" I look at where they're from. If it's England, it's the traffic light system. If it's NA, it means "vulnerable" but who is vul has to be figured from context. Unless it's me - then it's probably the traffic light thing. If they're from somewhere else, who knows?

[Vampyr]

 blackshoe, on 2013-August-07, 05:42, said:

If someone says "red" I look at where they're from. If it's England, it's the traffic light system. If it's NA, it means "vulnerable" but who is vul has to be figured from context. Unless it's me - then it's probably the traffic light thing. If they're from somewhere else, who knows?

I live in England, and very few people around here use the "traffic light" system -- at least in London.

[blackshoe]

 Vampyr, on 2013-August-07, 05:44, said:

I live in England, and very few people around here use the "traffic light" system -- at least in London.

Huh. Well, I learned it in Gosport. Never played in London.

[Cyberyeti]

 Vampyr, on 2013-August-07, 05:31, said:

Well, there is jargon and there is babyish slang. "Dive" for sacrifice is one which I don't even understand, since we're bidding higher, not lower. Another kind of annoying thing is when people use those weird colour-codes for vulnerability, because they are ambiguous; if you say "red", does that mean that we're vulnerable or does it mean that we are at unfavourable vulnerability?

I presume dive is like a boxer taking a dive, putting yourself in the ring intending not to succeed.

[kenberg]

I am often confused by jargon. I have been playing, off and on, more more or less forever. I still get confused by phrases such as "The King is sitting over the Queen". Is this good for the Queen or bad for the Queen?

But I agree that all enterprises have jargon. I favor keeping it to a minimum. Zero, if possible.


Way back as a young prof, I applied for a research grant. .At that time the President of the University required that anyone applying for a grant include a short write-up for him describing, what the research was about. He read all of these. He sent a note to the Chair mentioning me, among others, as having written something that he, as a non-mathematician, could understand. I was very pleased by this. Yes I got the grant.

[blackshoe]

Interesting. My (Oxford American English) dictionary says that "jargon" comes from Middle English, with "an original meaning of 'twittering or chattering', later 'gibberish'".

Makes sense to me.

[Thiros]

"sry"

It has boggled my mind for years that this dehydrated fragment of text-talk passes for an apology. If you are really and truly sorry, then spell out the damn word. Two extra letters isn't going to break your hand.

[jjbrr]

sry to hear it's taken you years and you still haven't figured out they aren't really and truly sry

[mycroft]

no, no,

"sry 2 heer its taken u years & u still haven't figured out"...

[y66]

 jjbrr, on 2013-August-07, 23:04, said:

sry to hear it's taken you years and you still haven't figured out they aren't really and truly sry

Just because I think this is funny as hell does not mean I am indifferent to the pain it will cause others.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2013-August-07, 08:20, said:

But I agree that all enterprises have jargon. I favor keeping it to a minimum. Zero, if possible.

Proper use of jargon often serves as a shibboleth. Overuse or misuse marks someone as a wannabe.

[mike777]

 barmar, on 2013-August-08, 22:31, said:

Proper use of jargon often serves as a shibboleth. Overuse or misuse marks someone as a wannabe.

granted but that is 99.99% of us.
and that is ok.
easy to dismiss misuse...easy to forgive overuse.

I mean even Justin said he does not know in full 3 way kokish or what that means.

the fact they bother to know the jargon seems plus+1 to most of the world.


I can remember when "click, right or right click seemed confusing.

my first response was right click on what?

I bet without google many today would be confused by URL.
or put in URL and I said what is an URL and why do I care?
--------


anyway my only point is knowing the basic words of jargon is pretty important, more important that I ever thought.
Knowing the words if not in depth what the really mean can go far.

[kenberg]

The obvious danger with jargon is that it can lead to misunderstanding. I will be stopping by the "helpdesk" today at the University. My current expectations with these folks are pretty favorable, but it has been variable over the years. If I just need something simple done, then I suppose it doesn't matter whether I understand what they are saying or not., except that I still like to know. But often, with more complex issues, it's important to know what is going on. I appreciate it when these guys speak as if I am capable of grasping the message but I am not familiar with the lingo. "The X23 has to be buffered by the YT zygote by linking it to the zy23" doesn't mean much to me. Anyway, I appreciate it when someone speaks so that I understand what they are saying.

As to bridge jargon, here is a story from when I was first starting to play. I was declaring a hand and asked about carding. "We play upside down revolving Roman discards". I figured I could play the hand or learn what these were, there was not likely to be time to do both. I played the hand.

A partner and I once retaliated by playing Fibonacci discards: The Ace(=1) , 2,3,5,8 and King(=13) were encouraging the other cards were discouraging. I believe Bobby Wolff once suggested playing "My Social security Number" discards.


PS So you don't have to look it up: The Fibonacci sequence goes 1,1,2,3,,5,8,13,21,..., beginning with 1,1 and then each subsequent number is the sum of the preceding two numbers (13=8+5, 21=13+8, et cetera).

[mycroft]

Jargon has the massive benefit (in certain cases) that it has a very specific, very nuanced meaning, and it is almost impossible to hold a graduate-level conversation without it without overrunning the supper break. So, when talking to people in the know, about topics we can be comfortable with the ground rules on, I use the jargon, "knowing" that the rest of the conversation knows the 150 words I meant by "used UI".

However:
- people who don't know the jargon are not dumb, and also are not ignorable. You should be able to explain yourself with no jargon, and explain the jargon, to first-year knowledge people.
- there are some who are so deep into their world that they simply can not dig down to the "don't know anything yet" level. I have to admit that with bridge, I am one of those - but at least I know it and admit it. "Don't let mycroft near the novices (for answering questions, not for directing)". There are those who don't know that, and those who won't admit it. These are dangerous.
- there are those who could, but won't, explain without jargon. They're using it in an exclusionary manner, and are boors.

I am a very technical person, and don't speak Management (in fact, in long-standing techy tradition, I frequently refer to Manglement, even to Manglement.) I realize that there's lots of jargon and it gets the point across between people in Management, and they should use it when dealing with each other - it makes progress. But those who can de-jargon it for me are Management. Those who can't are Suits. Those who won't are [profanity elided], and I see no reason not to retaliate in kind.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2013-August-09, 06:53, said:

[size="3"]The obvious danger with jargon is that it can lead to misunderstanding. I will be stopping by the "helpdesk" today at the University. My current expectations with these folks are pretty favorable, but it has been variable over the years. If I just need something simple done, then I suppose it doesn't matter whether I understand what they are saying or not., except that I still like to know. But often, with more complex issues, it's important to know what is going on. I appreciate it when these guys speak as if I am capable of grasping the message but I am not familiar with the lingo. "The X23 has to be buffered by the YT zygote by linking it to the zy23" doesn't mean much to me. Anyway, I appreciate it when someone speaks so that I understand what they are saying.

There are right times for jargon, and wrong times. Jargon streamlines conversations when it's used between members of the community that it's intended for. But when you're talking to outsiders, you have to remember that they don't speak your language, and you should adjust. Helpdesk techs live at the border between the two communities, and they should know to adjust their language depending on whether they're talking with insiders or outsiders.

However, with that said, the increased prevalence of high technology has caused many jargon terms to spread to ordinary language. There was a time when "mouse", "desktop", and "menu" were techie jargon, now they're commonly understood by practically everyone under 40. "URL" is pretty close behind. On the other hand, computer users don't typically need to deal directly with "virtual memory", so that jargon hasn't become mainstream, and probably never will.