[phil_20686]

So the hand that gave rise to these questions was the following MP problem, red vs green you hold

---

What now?

[gnasher]

I think that this is best, as well as being reasonably intuitive:
- 5♠ = one-suited slam try without a heart control
- 5♥ = spades + a minor, can stop in 5♠.
- 4NT then 5♠ = one-suited slam try with a heart control

In the only partnership where I've discussed this, we play something slightly different:
- 5♠ shows heart losers, so it could be either xx or Ax
- 4NT then 5♠ shows heart control and no slow heart losers, ie normally a singleton.
I think this is worse, because it might mean missing a slam with Ax opposite xx with the rest of the hand solid.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Let's see what I do know ( to eliminate from the choices ):

(4H) - ??
........... DBL = 3 suited T/O
............4NT! = minor 2-suiter ( at least 5/5 )
............4S/5C/5D = to play

So, I need bids for the following:
i ) strong Sp w/ Ht Ctrl .......I think I'd choose: 5H
ii) strong Sp w/o Ht Ctrl.......I think I'd choose: 5S
iii) strong 2-suiter: Sp/minor...I think I'd roll this one into the T/O DBL
After the DBL:
... this allows partner to bid 4S if that is best for him;
...or if partner bids 5m, then 5S by you would show Sp/other-minor 2-suiter.

[aguahombre]

phil_20686, on 2011-December-29, 07:13, said:

So the hand that gave rise to these questions was the following MP problem, red vs green you hold

---

What now?

I would have to think about that for a long time. What should we do when we are short in partner's suit with all our values in the two suits shown on our right?

Whatever Partner does with that knowledge is up to her; but that is what I call an "informatory" double --different from its apparent original meaning.

[Fluffy]

6♥ now

[FrancesHinden]

I've posted elsewhere that I don't like having a lot of emphasis on whether or not I have a heart control as you need controls in all four suits, and 12 tricks, to make slam.
So I am confident that:

immediate 5S = hand too good for 4S
5H = big 2-suiter, spades and a minor (interesting discussion if 5S can be passed)
4NT then 5S = slam try in the minor partner just selected, without first round heart control

As for the actual hand, I was kibbitzing when this came up so I know what all four hands are. The auction at the table I was watching started the same way.
I think the correct action is a lot less obvious aquahombre's sarcasm suggests.

It depends quite a lot on who your RHO is (and if you know what 5S means).
At 'my' table, the 4H/6D bidder was Jallerton who is known as both a very good player and generally a sound/scientific type bidder (in 20+ years of playing with him I think I've only ever twice seen him pre-empt and then bid (not double) again on the next round). OBviously I don't know who Phil's opponents were!

[aguahombre]

Yes, Frances, I was being sarcastic. But that doesn't mean I was advocating a "stand up on the table" double. I just feel it is the best possible helpful description I can give partner.

[dwar0123]

My non expert opinion.

If he was interested in your side suits, he would bid 4nt or double. He wants to know about the quality of your spades, specifically he wants the ace or king.

I would double now.

I feel like trying to decide which way of getting to 5s(direct or via 4nt) is asking about a heart stopper is biased on the fact we have the ace of hearts. I think it is unlikely we have the ace of hearts in this auction and wasting one of the few available bids we have asking about it is absurd. That we actually have it not withstanding. I picture partner with kqjxxxx x - akqxx or kqjxxxx - x akqxx or qj10xxxxx - - akqxx.

[gszes]

bid of opps suit at 5 level = 1 suited hand (any) exclusion blackwood
i.e. A void KQJT9xxx KQJT IMO after a bidding sequence like this p is a huge
favorite to have at least 1 minor ace so the gamble is worth it.


4n followed by (over minor suit bid) 5h = spades and other minor
4n followed by (5c 5d or 5h) 5s = single suited spades worried about spades ie
QJTxxxxxx void AKQ A p would step bid spade stuff
----P = none
----5n = Q or xxx(xx) 6c asks how many spades
--------6d = 1 or 2
--------6h = 3
--------6s = 4
----6c = stiff K
----6d = stiff A
----6h = Kx or Ax
----6s = Kxx or Axx
----6n = 2 of top 3 and 2 side aces (should be sufficient for 7n but let p bid it anyway)
----7c = 2 of top 3 and club A
----7d = 2 of top 3 and dia A
----7h = 2 of top 3 and heart A
----7s = 2 of top 3
5c to play range is so wide as to make slam exploration hazardous
5d to play range is so wide as to make slam exploration hazardous
5h exclusion blackwood single suited hand
5s spade slam try but no heart control
5n pick a slam 3 suited hand AKQx x AKQx AKQx (if we are too high ah well)
6c/6d/6s bid 7 with A or K in bid suit (it is our trump suit) AK void KQJT8765432 void
6h bid 7n with an ace else bid 6n AK KQ AK AKQJxxx

[mikestar13]

At match points, North should follow Kit Woolsey's advice and just bid 6♠ with a decent slam try and let them guess whether slam is hopeless, cold, or a tossup.But faced with the actual bidding, I would take it as asking for a heart control just like the more common cases of a voluntary 5M bid. (Voluntary=could have bid or passed 4M). Our agreement about V5M are as follows:

• Control of the enemy suit , unless control has been previously shown.
• If #1 does not apply, control of the only unbid suit.
• If #2 does not apply, trump quality.
• In the unlikely event that #3 does not apply (trump quality is already known), quantitative.

In the sequence ?-(4♥)-4NT-(P)-5m-(P)-5♠, this would be the next following item on the list--so in the hand in question, the direct 5♠ asks for a heart control, and going by 4NT would ask trump quality. There were two unbid suits ( the minor) when this approach would have been chosen, so #2 is inapplicable.)

[whereagles]

Since 5S doesn't make any sense as preemptive, this probably has the classical meaning of "11 tricks and 2 trump losers". In that case I dbl 6D and dbl 6H afterwards.

Of course, pard might also have a doubleton heart and the nuts outside. You can't really tell, so... better assume the worse.

Fluffy's 6H is nice but it's gonna look silly if pard happens to have the classical hand

[kayin801]

6♠ wdo if we score +1460 but I'd guess very few people are in 7♠=

Given that you can show most 2 suiters with 4NT or 5NT, I'm not sure what the difference between 5♥ and 5♠ should be, and I guess utility-wise one can show a heart control or no heart control, but it seems to be aiming for a pretty specific target on this auction. Maybe 5♥ should be just be a better hand while 5♠ sorta shuts us out.

[Yu18772]

Not that it matters much - but I menat 5H as strong two-suiter, not 3 suiter

[rhm]

FrancesHinden, on 2011-December-29, 13:54, said:

I've posted elsewhere that I don't like having a lot of emphasis on whether or not I have a heart control as you need controls in all four suits, and 12 tricks, to make slam.
So I am confident that:

immediate 5S = hand too good for 4S

I agree completely. When opponents have preempted there is limited room showing different hand types and this type of hand is much more important and frequent than the very rare hands where the only issue is ♥ control, when partner's hand is completely unknown.

5♥ = any hand with ♥ control, likely a void, which wants to force to slam and which does not want to defend 4♥ doubled. However, a minor two-suiter would start with 4NT.

4NT then 5♠ = looking for a grand slam in the minor partner just selected.
4NT showed a minor two suiter (over 4♥) and I am not of the school where subsequent bids can cancel the meaning of previous ones.
5♠ shows first round control in both majors. How else can you invite a grand opposite a partner who has not promised anything?
Without first round control in ♥ simply raise to six.

Rainer Herrmann

[xcurt]

My answer to "what is best?" is Frances agreement.

I think "standard" is what gnasher posted.

I'd double, but thats just because it's mps and:

* I expect LHO to go back to hearts, and so I can hear if partner doubles 6H or not, discouraging
* I expect RHO has at most one black card so splits will be awful
* I a strong believer in taking the plus at matchpoints

If the final contract is 6Hx I lead my ace.

[phil_20686]

The other hands were:

---

Since this is cheap against game it was obviously a terrible MP score. Anecdotally, large fraction of the field bid 4S and was allowed to play there, so if you bid the slam and they sac you are still well below average.

[Fluffy]

phil_20686, on 2012-January-09, 03:24, said:

large fraction of the field bid 4S and was allowed to play there

O_o

[xcurt]

You probably weren't winning this board anyway given that your side is supposed to bear par, and you were presumably playing against seeded opponents.

Also, note that if RHO had 1750 or 1660 with the same texture you can't make 6S. Therefore, even if you knew partner's hand over 6D, it isn't clear to bid.

[FrancesHinden]

phil_20686, on 2012-January-09, 03:24, said:

Since this is cheap against game it was obviously a terrible MP score. Anecdotally, large fraction of the field bid 4S and was allowed to play there, so if you bid the slam and they sac you are still well below average.

You don't need anecdotes, you can look up the results at http://www.ebu.co.uk...SwissPairs3.txt
Out of 73 tables, only 9 played in 4S, but quite a lot played in 5S
If they save in 7D and you take 500 you get only a 29% board as you say, but it's not at all clear they are going to bid 7D if you bid 6S

[xcurt]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-January-13, 16:13, said:

You don't need anecdotes, you can look up the results at http://www.ebu.co.uk...SwissPairs3.txt
Out of 73 tables, only 9 played in 4S, but quite a lot played in 5S
If they save in 7D and you take 500 you get only a 29% board as you say, but it's not at all clear they are going to bid 7D if you bid 6S

Nice recaps. Makes the ACBL look pathetic. What are they doing down there (besides building shiny new HQ)?