[barmar]

If you're playing some form of Smolen over 2NT openers, then the auction 2NT-3♦-3♥-3♠ shows 5-5 in the majors and is forcing. But what if you're not playing Smolen (I usually play Puppet Stayman, and not any of the variations that allow you to show 5-4 hands)? Does this still show 5-5, or is it now 4=5?

Here's how I bid it, but I'm not sure it was right:

---

Partner correctly figured out that I must have all my strength concentrated in my two suits, so his fillers were perfect and he went to 7. But it seems like there should be a way to bid it slower so we can cue bid.

[kenrexford]

My view is somewhat non-mainstream. (Really, it is.)

With 5-5 and slammish, I start with Puppet Stayman (actually, Muppet). If partner bids a major, holy cow.

More often, he bids 3♦, promising a 4-card major, which is great too. I that event, I start with 3♥, showing four (or more in my methods) spades. If partner likes spades, he can cue on route to 4♠, which is great. If not, he will bid 3NT. After 3NT, I then bid 4♥ to show 5-5 with slam interest or 4♠ with 5-5 and slam force.

Most often, however, partner bids 3♥ (playing Muppet), in which case I then bid 3♠ to show five spades. If he likes that, he cues. If not (3NT), I then continue as with the other parallel sequence.

[Trinidad]

I play 4♣ as: "pick a major" (at least 55 in the majors, normally to play at the game level). When partner has picked a major, I would normally pass, but I may just drive to slam (as I would here):
2NT-4♣                both majors
4♥-4♠    hearts     Cue
etc.

If I need something from partner to be in a slam (i.e. too much to give up on slam, but too little to drive to it myself), I will transfer to spades and follow up with 4♥:
2NT-3♥                 transfer
3♠-4♥   Accept     slam try with 55+ majors

Rik

[mikeh]

We play:

3♦ as a transfer to hearts, but our methods incorporate multiple hand types in this bid, so it is only 'ostensibly a transfer...may not hold hearts'

Opener will usually bid 3♥, and the only super-accept is 3♠ (we cannot go past 3♠ since we need to allow responder to show the non-heart hands).

Over 3♥, a jump to 4♠ shows a forcing 5-5 major two-suiter.

opener can bid 4N as a regressive move. Other bids are responses to 6 card keycard.

If opener super-accepts, we don't bother showing the spade suit: we have our trump suit already.

[barmar]

Sorry, should have been more clear. I'm not looking for new conventions, but how I should have bid it given that I'm playing fairly standard methods: Jacoby/Texas Transfers and Puppet Stayman.

Maybe I should have posted this in the SAYC&2/1 forum to limit the discussion to that context?

[mikeh]

 barmar, on 2011-December-09, 13:34, said:

Sorry, should have been more clear. I'm not looking for new conventions, but how I should have bid it given that I'm playing fairly standard methods: Jacoby/Texas Transfers and Puppet Stayman.

Maybe I should have posted this in the SAYC&2/1 forum to limit the discussion to that context?

Sorry, I had thought you were looking for a method of showing a powerful 5-5.

And I am going to compound my error by offering a comment on the opening 2N. I would upgrade that to 2♣ followed by 2N. I think valuing this hand, with all those Aces and Kings, as 21 is an error.

of course, that doesn't help much....I would advocate a 2♦ waiting response to 2♣, intending to go nuts in due course....but with this powerhouse, a positive spade response would almost certainly work as well.


After the 2N opening or a 2N rebid after a 2♦ response to 2♣, the problem still exists.

I think your auction was fine. Opener did exactly the right thing....other than lacking a 4th heart, he has a super-max and grand has to be at least 50% and may well be cold.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

For me the "rule" is NOT to play Stayman ( or Puppet/Muppet ) with 5/5 in the Majors.

With 5/5 start with a transfer :
2NT - 3H!
3S - 4H = 5h/5s, pass-or-correct for play

whereas:
2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S ( ostensibly 5h/4s )
3NT ( ostensibly 2h/3s ) - 4S ( 5h/5s, slammish )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
And use Texas-over-Puppet for 6/4 in the Majors:
2NT - 3C!
3NT ( no 4 or 5 card M ) - 4D!/4H! ( Texas-over-Puppet; 6h/4s or 6s/4h respectively )

[mike777]

fwiw
3h then 4h shows 5/5
3d then 3s shows 4s and 6h

3c...3d now
3h shows 5s and 4h
3s shows 4s and 5h

Note that responder can rebid 4c/4d as a natural second suit.

[barmar]

The problem with 3♥ then 4♥ is that it's pass/correct. With my strong hand, I can't make a bid that partner can pass at game level.

Quote

3c...3d now
3h shows 5s and 4h
3s shows 4s and 5h

Not if you play Puppet Stayman.

[mike777]

 barmar, on 2011-December-09, 16:01, said:

The problem with 3♥ then 4♥ is that it's pass/correct. With my strong hand, I can't make a bid that partner can pass at game level.


Not if you play Puppet Stayman.

dont know puppet never played it, dont know why people do .....or care too.....just play in nt with some 5-3 fits.

--


for starters with your example hand responder can always force to small slam......and second issue is that your hand is too good for 2nt.

I guess after 3h rather than 4h with no slam interest you can rebid 6h with grand interest..I guess the 2nt bidder now has to guess to pass, correct to 6s or jump to 7 in a suit.

Yes that means we have no way to 100% force to grand slam and show huge 2 suiter when pard opens 2nt. we can try smolen i guess and hope but geez that hand has got to be pretty rare to worry about the grand.

[barmar]

 TWO4BRIDGE, on 2011-December-09, 15:33, said:

whereas:
2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S ( ostensibly 5h/4s )
3NT ( ostensibly 2h/3s ) - 4S ( 5h/5s, slammish )

In the actual case, partner would presumably bid 4♥ over 3♠, since he has ♥ support. I can then cue bid 4♠. But this just shows the Ace, not a 5-card suit. Can we still bid 7 confidently with this start?

My concern is that I could have a hand like: ♠Axxx ♥KQJxx ♦x ♣xxx and would bid the same way. With this, the grand requires two ♠ ruffs and something good happening in the minors.

[Cyberyeti]

2N-3♥-3♠-4♥ 5-5 mild slam invite

2N-4♦ 5-5 to play or strong slam invite, we do not play 4 level transfers.

Edit: I didn't add that this hand is trivial for this method, the 5-5 hand needs to find out that partner has ♠K, ♥A, both minor suit aces and one of the kings to make 7♥ decent.

2N-4♦(5-5 majors to play or slammy)
4♥-4♠(kickback)
4N (0/3)-5♥ (signoff opposite the unlikely 0, close to guaranteed Q♥)
5♠(K)-5N (tell me more)
6♣(K)-7♥

[bluecalm]

Quote

2N-3♥-3♠-4♥ 5-5 mild slam invite

2N-4♦ 5-5 to play or strong slam invite, we do not play 4 level transfers.

So let's say you have 6 of a major and slam invite/force, how do you bid it ?

[Statto]

 mike777, on 2011-December-09, 16:11, said:

Yes that means we have no way to 100% force to grand slam and show huge 2 suiter when pard opens 2nt.

What about transfering then bidding the other suit at the 7 level? 2NT-3♥;3♠-7♥. Not that I'm suggesting that here.

-oOo-

What would 4NT have meant in 2NT-3♥;3♠-4NT? If it would have been RKCB for ♠s then it would seem to be the right tool for the job: 2NT-3♥;3♠-4NT;5♦-5NT;6♣-7♥. 5♦ shows all the key cards, 6♣ shows either that King or the two other Kings (you can play this any other way and still get there), and 7♥ is pick a grand, thinking that there are 13 tricks off the top, which without bad breaks there will be, but also showing the 5-5 which will hopefully be passed on grounds of safety.

[Cyberyeti]

 bluecalm, on 2011-December-09, 20:19, said:

So let's say you have 6 of a major and slam invite/force, how do you bid it ?

Transfer at the 3 level (we break the transfer with any 4 cards or 3 cards with a good 5 card side suit) then minor suit at the 4 level (ostensibly nat, but may well morph into a cue) or kickback.

[bluecalm]

Quote

(ostensibly nat, but may well morph into a cue) or kickback.

Not gonna work imo, it should be nat and now 4level bids should be (general) cuebids or kickbacks (depending what you like) on new minor suit while 4NT should be to play.
The reason is that if you have 5M-4+m and SI you need some way to bid it, now after 4m you need:
4of your M - weak hand with support for your M which just want to be left alone in 4M
4NT - 2-3 in your suits, or even 2-4 with weakish, nt'ish hannd

You now have one or two 4level bids. It would be nice to be able to ask for aces somehow or at least establish slam force. You will never find space for all that if 4m might be natural or one suited.
Also if you have spades then:
2NT - 3H
3S - how do you bid having slam force ? 4NT must be natural (for 5M-3-3-2 SI), 4H is 5-5 in your system.

So there is no place for "or kickback" in this sequence.

[Cyberyeti]

 bluecalm, on 2011-December-10, 05:09, said:

Not gonna work imo, it should be nat and now 4level bids should be (general) cuebids or kickbacks (depending what you like) on new minor suit while 4NT should be to play.
The reason is that if you have 5M-4+m and SI you need some way to bid it, now after 4m you need:
4of your M - weak hand with support for your M which just want to be left alone in 4M
4NT - 2-3 in your suits, or even 2-4 with weakish, nt'ish hannd

You now have one or two 4level bids. It would be nice to be able to ask for aces somehow or at least establish slam force. You will never find space for all that if 4m might be natural or one suited.
Also if you have spades then:
2NT - 3H
3S - how do you bid having slam force ? 4NT must be natural (for 5M-3-3-2 SI), 4H is 5-5 in your system.

So there is no place for "or kickback" in this sequence.

The "or kickback" was for 2N-3♦-3♥-4♠

What happens with 5M/4m we bid transfer then the minor. If the minor is not a real suit as it needed to be invented with 6M, responder will convert back to the major.

With 5♠/4♥ we have system over 2N-3♣ to deal with that.

[Vampyr]

 Trinidad, on 2011-December-09, 12:35, said:

I play 4♣ as: "pick a major" (at least 55 in the majors, normally to play at the game level).

This is quite good. We do this over 1NT openings as well.

Over 2NT, it does help to have a little machinery to deal with minor suits -- eg 3♠ transfer to 3NT to play or make certain slam tries, 3NT Baron.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The final contract using RKC will depend on who does the asking:

2NT - 3D!
3H - 3S
4H - 4S = ??
...........If 4S is a Ctrl cue , Opener will go 4NT-RKC with his hand and the 5S ( = 2 + ♥Q ) will confirm all key cards; but 5NT next will reveal no outside Kings and Opener will stop in 6H.

...........However, if 4S! = kickback RKC, then 5S! next will be the K-ask >> the 5NT reply will show the ♠K and there is still room for a 2nd K-ask of 6♣, and Opener will reply 6NT showing the ♣ K .. and Responder has no qualm in bidding 7H.

[phil_20686]

So there are two simple ideas that work well. The first one is to play normal stayman with reverse smolen.

Then 3c-3d-3h, would be GF 5S-4H, and now you can play 2n-3d-3h-3s shows 55.


A second, very workable idea, is to break the transfer with any Hxx or better. Then when partner completes the transfer any new suit is natural 5-5. This also helps when you are 5M5m.