[jillybean]

IMP NV you hold AKx, ATx, K9x, AJ94

Partner opens..

1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
4♣ (P)   ?

[Hanoi5]

Why did I bid 3♣ before? I suppose I'll KC now.

[jillybean]

Hanoi5, on 2011-September-12, 08:40, said:

Why did I bid 3♣ before? I suppose I'll KC now.

Please tell me what you would have bid first round?

[wyman]

I would have strongly considered 4N quantitative.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

3C would not be my choice, but the bid is ok, the alternative is X.
4NT instead of 3C is not quantitative, well it may, but hopefully you
and p are on the same page.

Having found a fit, having +31 between me an p, we play slam, I would
go with 6D - the trouble with 3C is, that the bid should be based on
a 5 card suit, so 4C may be based on 3 card support, but p will have
5 diamonds ...
Ok he may be 4432, holding a weak NT. Take your pick.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[jillybean]

wyman, on 2011-September-12, 09:19, said:

I would have strongly considered 4N quantitative.

1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit?

[Hanoi5]

X or 3♥. X if there's a way to convince partner we don't have spades later. 3♥ if it primarily asks for a stopper.

[ArtK78]

jillybean, on 2011-September-12, 09:38, said:

1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit?

No, quantitative means invitational to 6NT based on high-card points.

If you play some ace (or key-card) asking bid other than 4NT in this sequence, then 4NT is natural and invitational (i.e., quantitative).

i would double 2♥. Let partner describe his hand. I will keep the bidding moving forward with a cue bid or other forcing call later.

[gwnn]

jillybean, on 2011-September-12, 09:38, said:

1♦ (2♥) 4N is quantitative, in ♦'s? And where are you going bidding Q4N on a 4/3 fit?

4N is quantitative in NT (quantitative bids never have a suit agreed). in this case it basically says "i would have bid 4NT quantitative over 1NT 12-14. I have 2-3 diamonds, less than 4 spades and a pretty good heart stop". I am not sure if my partners would take it as such, but I think it's the best meaning for 4N. I am a big fan of quantitative 4NT though.

[aguahombre]

I think 3♥establishes diamonds as trump, for now; but I can live with that. If partner (unlikely) bids 3NT, I can quant it. If not, I can convert to NT later, myself.

Might not discover the club fit if opener has four or five of them.

[helene_t]

Agree with 3♣. It does show five but p must have at least four, otherwise he would have bid 3♥ to keep the door open for 3NT.

I ask for keycards now.

[wyman]

ArtK78, on 2011-September-12, 10:39, said:

If you play some ace (or key-card) asking bid other than 4NT in this sequence, then 4NT is natural and invitational (i.e., quantitative).

For my regular partnerships, 4N is quantitative in all auctions where we haven't set trumps and where we have a cheaper forcing raise available. Here, since I can cuebid to show a diamond raise (and later keycard), 4N would be quantitative.

Double is my second choice, but these auctions can get muddled up quickly after a X (both due to opps interfering and partnership misunderstandings), and I think 4N is both the best description of my hand at the moment and the least likely bid to cause a misunderstanding.

[pooltuna]

6NT.....Hamman eggs in one basket?

[mikeh]

I have no issue with 3♣. No other alternative seems any better. (edited: thx han for pointing out my typo...I originally posted '4♣)

Double leads to problems after a spade response.

Supporting diamonds, via 3♥, will lead to problems unless partner bids 3N, which isn't going to happen very often.

Bidding a quantitative notrump seems very committal to notrump. It also seems to me to be an underbid. Consider a blah hand such as Qx xx AJxxx KQxx....it's not likely partner would move over 4N, and yet 6♣ is a great spot.

Having bid 3♣ and got a raise, we are not exactly out of the woods yet. I expect 4 clubs from partner, not so much because he didn't bid 3♥ but because he didn't bid either 3♦ or 3♠, so won't hold 4♠ or 5+♦ unless he also has 4 card support.

Having got the club fit, I now use keycard, whatever flavour our partnership prefers. Unfortunately, I know of no method to find out about grand while keeping us in 6♣ so I suspect we'll languish in the small slam whether he shows me 1 or 2 keys and regardless of the club Q issue (if 4N is keycard, I cannot really pass 5♣.....Qx Qx QJxxx KQxx isn't an opening hand and even that makes slam pretty good).

I applaud anyone who, knowing what they are doing, bids an excellent grand.

[han]

I agree that 4NT is an underbid, but I don't agree that it commits us to notrump. This is a very typical shape and if partner moves over 4NT we can easily get back to clubs or diamonds.

I also agree that 3C is reasonable. It's a bit dangerous, partner will expect a 5-card suit instead of a 4-card suit. But maybe this is a hand where the 4-3 fit is best, for instance if partner has xxxx x AQJxx KQx then 7C is the best grand.

After 4C I would bid 4D to see if partner can cuebid 4H. It seems too soon for blackwood.

[han]

mikeh, on 2011-September-12, 12:23, said:

Having bid 3♣ and got a raise, we are not exactly out of the woods yet. I expect 4 clubs from partner, not so much because he didn't bid 3♥ but because he didn't bid either 3♦ or 3♠, so won't hold 4♠ or 5+♦ unless he also has 4 card support.

I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that with 4-1-5-3 shape partner should not raise clubs but bid 3S (maybe making it impossible to show club support later) or 3D (shudder!). 3C shows 5+ clubs, I don't see why partner can't raise with 3.

[mikeh]

han, on 2011-September-12, 13:22, said:

I don't understand this part. Are you suggesting that with 4-1-5-3 shape partner should not raise clubs but bid 3S (maybe making it impossible to show club support later) or 3D (shudder!). 3C shows 5+ clubs, I don't see why partner can't raise with 3.

Well, it depends, I suspect, on how you handle gf responding hands with 4=6/4=5 in the blacks. I tend to bid 3♣ hoping to be able to back into spades, or hear partner show them, later. This can be problematic.....should partner bid 3N with a heart stopper or two when holding 4♠, or bid the spades, probably losing 3N forever? So I will vary my approach depending on the degree with which I can handle probable auctions....I would tend to double more with borderline gf hands and bid with extra values.

If your view is that responder essentially denies 4 spades by the 3♣ call, then you are dealing with other problems.

Btw, why the shudder over 3♦? We have people suggesting that opener should bid 3♥ with only 3 card club support in case we belong in 3N. To me, 3♦ on a 5 card suit is perfectly permissible.

As for 'maybe making it impossible to show club support later, again I don't understand the point. If we bid 3♠, hear 3N and choose to bid 4♣ on our assumed (for this auction) 4=1=5=3, isn't this a heck of a lot better sequence than simply raising 3♣ to 4♣? And if we were planning on passing 3N, why are we raising to 4♣ immediately, thus abandoning a game contract that we are presumably content to play if partner bids it?

The only issue, it seems to me, is if partner, over 3♠, bids 4♦ or 4♠. In the former case, aren't we happy? Does it really rate to matter a heck of a lot which minor we play in? In the latter, aren't we delighted to find the major?

[jillybean]

Akx, ATx, K9x, AJ94

1♦ (2♥) 3♣ (P)
4♣ (P)

If you ask for kc partner will show 2 w/o Q
If you make a ♦ cue, partner will respond 4♥

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2011-September-12, 17:17, said:

If you make a ♦ cue, partner will respond 4♥

Oh, no Kickback today?

[Fluffy]

IMO partner has denied a heart shortness failing to bid 4♥ with what I think must be at least 4 clubs. This makes grand slam a bad shot in general so be content with keycard + bid 6