[rona_]

Atta boy

[inquiry]

Let's not start a which club is better war, PLEASE.... I think we can all agree that all the clubs have people of varying skill levels. Topflight strives for "gold star level", Abalucy strives for "advanced plus", there is an abalucy gold which stives for the best of those in abalucy club. So even if teh quality of abalucy membership falls slightly below advanced plus, their gold club must reach at least and probably higher than that... Then there is STARS and other clubs as well... I see nothing productive to come from such comments.... :

My mother taught me years ago, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. So I will say this.. topflight, abalucy and stars must all let not the greatest players in... how do I know? I am a member of all three... if they will let me in how high can their standards really be... :-)

Ben

[bglover]

You got into Topflight on a technicality and you know it!

[rona_]

It is not my intention to start a war neither to offend anyone. I just thought it fair to state my views and observations.

[Chamaco]

The_Hog, on Oct 10 2004, 11:03 PM, said:

"First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it."

I don't believe you. If you use the definition that a world class player plays in international competition, then a world class player will have a basic knowledge of Polish Club because he/she will frequently play against it. Perhaps your "world class" players are not world class after all?

For once in a while I have to disagree with Ron here

Among some examples of the definition of "World Class" falls Enzo Riolo (RIOLO937 on BBO), who won European Championships some 20 years ago in a team where was playing also the young Lauria.

I know him personally, and he does not know anymore many systems outside of those in use in italy (Neapolitan/Blue/Roman Clubs, Precision, Italian 4 card and 5 card major, some canapè systems).
He actually knows little even of the most used SAYC gadgets as well as 2/1 various styles, let alone Polish club.

I do believe that one may remain of World Class even if he does not keep up to date with modern bidding theory, but of course this relates to the definition of "World Class" term.

Still, I believe my argument is consistent with the definition of "World Class" given i the BBO guidelines though.

------------------

Just to add an analogy with chess: I believe system knowledge in bridge is akin to opening knowledge in chess.
It certainly consitutes quite an advantage, and most world class players have a good opening knowledge.

Yet, there are cases of great players who have switched to playing systems where they do not fight for the slightest theoretical opening advantage, but they simply try to reach a "normal" position where their superior judgement/flair will play its role.

They do not overload memory with too many opening variants but they save energy for the middlegame and endgame.

[Dragan]

Quote

Pass Pass X
2♣ 2♥ 3♣ Pass
Pass 3NT Pass Pass
Pass

Result: 3NT -2

Facts:
1) opps not alert 1♦ bid, althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than ♦
2) opps not alert 2♣ bid, althought it can be canape and when it is canape it is 11-15HCP, which is actually
3) Information that E/W pair play WJ2000 N/S got after bidding is finished, S player isn't familiar with WJ2000
4) N/S apealed
5) director leave reached result

Dillema's :
1) If opening bid include some specific hand like Canape, alert or not
2) If bid include or exclude some specific type of hand, alert or not
3) If previous is true, what is the sanction vs that players and what about their oponents

With Regards, Dragan

Pls folk's. I set this TOPIC's to we discuss one opening bid and one sequence bid's in polish club system. Let we pls discuss about this.

If you want to discuss about BBO club's, pls open such TOPICS.

Dragan.

[doofik]

Dragan,

I think I admire your persistence, but am not sure.

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

Jola

[jtfanclub]

doofik, on Oct 15 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

Dragan,

I think I admire your persistence, but am not sure.

I'm sure.

Every single person who has replied has said that neither 1♦ nor 2♣ needs to be alerted. We've pointed out sites, directors, official information from associations, and examples of SAYC making the exact same bids. We have also pointed out that 1♦ is not guaranteed unbalanced in Polish Club, and virtually every system allows you to open 1♦ with four diamonds and five clubs. And we've gone over this for a month.

But somehow, he thinks if he brings it up yet again somebody, somewhere, might agree with him.

This is hopeless.

[the hog]

Facts:
1) opps not alert 1♦ bid, althought it is limited to 11-18HCP and can hold longer suit than ♦

You have been told by at least 4 posters that this comment is incorrect and yet you persist in making it

2) opps not alert 2♣ bid, althought it can be canape and when it is canape it is 11-15HCP, which is actually

So what? Same for many in 2/1 or Sayc or Acol. Again you have been told this.

3) Information that E/W pair play WJ2000 N/S got after bidding is finished, S player isn't familiar with WJ2000

Yes they should have said at the start but there was no damage. Again you were told this. Incidentally, did you tell them what system you were playing?

4) N/S apealed

Totally fatuous appeal. In a competition you would lose your deposit.

5) director leave reached result

Correctly so. Deposit forfeited and North South warned not to waste the appeal committee's time.

Penultimate fact:

Poor bidding by North and South led to their bad result. Why did Nth double rather than bid 1S? Is AJT to 5 not a biddable suit for Nth? Why did Sth think that Qx was a stopper. Again you have been told this by numerous people.

Final fact:

This is getting boring.

[Aljosa]

I think that problem is seted correctly. You can agree or disagree. I note big antypathy to Dragan in Ron's latter.

Exuse me, but I can accept only apsolutic statement only from WBF directors, not from anonymous( Especially not from one with antypathy)

Apealing to director's decision is quite normal. Jury can accept it or not. Furthermore if jury think that apeal is not correct, money can be holded.

I'am the one who think that 1d(unbalance) and 1d-2c(could be canape) should be alerted. I talk about this problem with polish players and find divided opinion's.

[nikos59]

Asks doofik:

doofik, on Oct 15 2004, 08:57 PM, said:

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

Sorry, but in French standard you simply bid 1C with the hand you
mentioned. Which I find much more sane, unless you like
playing in a 4-2 fit. In fact, I so much abhor opening 1D with
this hand that if I were director in the above case I might give
reason to Dragan simply because I cannot stand the 1D opener

That said, I do know that many players (perhaps a majority??)
are delusional enough to open 1D and then rebid 2C with 4-5
in the minors, so it is obvious that one should not alert.

nikos

[Dragan]

To Ron,

Again Ron your antypathy to me do not allow you to read last latter. If you carefully read, you should notice : I ask to we discuss about my dillema's, not about BBO club's. If it is case that my dillema's bore someone, let he pls do not read this TOPIC.

You told us your opinion. Why you repeat the same? Do you believe that infinitely repeating statement make statement true ?

Your logic system use false induction method. If something is true for 1,2,3,4 we can't conclude that it is always true. If you use false assumptions, you can canclude whatever you want. Im my country we call it demagogy.

[Dragan]

doofik, on Oct 15 2004, 03:57 PM, said:

In any system, pick one, how do you bid a hand where you hold 5 clubs and 4 diamonds, and for the sake of argument, have 2-2 in majors and hold a total of 13 pts?

Jola

With 5c - 4d you can open always 1c.

your pd can than bid:
a. 1d -
b. 1h/s/1nt
c. 2c

if he bid a. with 16+ you bid 3d, with 16- you bid 2d

if he bid b.
with 16+ you bid 2d
with 16- you bid 2c (1nt rare) or pass in case 1nt bid. If pd isn't minimal he will bid once more so you can show your 4d

case c. is simply

:-)

[the hog]

No antipathy Dragan, I just can't understand why you are posting this again when you have been unanimously told in this forum and in rgb that you are wrong. Yet you still insist on making the same incorrect statements - the comment on canape and the classic below.

With 5c - 4d you can open always 1c.

your pd can than bid:
a. 1d -
b. 1h/s/1nt
c. 2c

if he bid a. with 16+ you bid 3d, with 16- you bid 2d.

And again note that you are TOTALLY INCORRECT.
In PC 1C 1M 2D shows 19+ with a 3 card fit or in other versions 18+ natural game force. Please don't make generalisations when you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. As Doofik says - at least read the 1C and 1D openings.

[doofik]

To Dragan,

Before you make certain suggestions, I'd ask you to please read at least 1♣ and the 1♦ openings in Polish Club system. Only after that can we get into a meaningful discussion.

To Everyone Else,

I don't know the SEF, however, I'd expect an alert and an explanation if something 'untoward' is bid. How's that for peace on Earth?

Jola

[Gerben47]

Let me put this more strongly. If the director adjusts score on this board then he should return the appeal deposit out of his own pocket.

I think his persistence has to do with his antipathy of Polish Club.

I would open 1♦ playing SAYC or Acol or Polish Club or whatever other natural system I might be playing. (Yes PC is natural, in fact more so than SAYC).

Nikos, you say that in French Standard you open 1♣ and then rebid 2♣. I respect the opinion of the French but I think it is terrible.

Dragan says that if partner bids once more you can show your diamonds. Wrong! Are you ready to bid 3♦ with a minimum?

[Dragan]

To D and R,

My answer to Jola is related to Natural based system's. Where I said that answer is related with WJ ? That can conclude everyone with basic knowledge of WJ.

I hope other's will read carefull.

IF YOU USE FALSE ASSYMPTIONS YOU CAN PROVE EVERYTHING. Using red colours will not make some statements true.

Pls, I started this TOPIC. If you do not like my TOPIC, simply do not answer and TOPIC will go to the bottom of the stack.

[nikos59]

To Gerben: I did not say that the French rebid 2C, only they
open 1C. With 2-2-4-5 they rebid 1NT. With 1-3-4-5 they
either rebid 1NT or 2C. There are even some revolutionaries
who may raise the major if partner bids a major and they
happen to have 3 cards there with 1345 or 3145.

As I said, there is nothing more terrible than playing in 4-2 fit
after 1D-1M/2C-2D [where opener
is 4-5 minors but opened a psychic 1D].

Nikos
PS I use the word 'psychic' as a tribute to (I guess) Kaplan.

[Dragan]

Yes Nikos,

You had absolutely right. Point is : in all natural based systems with 5c-4d you open 1c.

[the hog]

Absolutely wrong yet again.

With weak C and decent Ds in natural based systems with 5c-4d you can certainly open 1D.