[helene_t]

It might make sense to explain the 1♦-opening as "4+ unballanced may have longer clubs". Depends on the level of the opps. Personally, I would expect something like this to be the meaning, or at least a likely meaning, of a natural 1♦-opening in any system that I'd never heard about and which does not sound like a dialect of Acol/StdAm.

[pozeracz]

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.
1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced
2. in this seqence 2c is not limited to 14hcp and/or 4 clubs, it may be also 4ex. 17hcp and 1-2-5-5
3. if I have 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and I bid diamonds first I do not promise good hand. If I have 5 clubs and 4 diamonds and I bid clubs first it is strong hand. Imho it is not very strange.
4. many polish club players open 1d also if they have 4 diamonds and 1 or 2 clubs (3-4-4-2 or simillar), or if they have 5d-332.

Cheers

[Dragan]

pozeracz, on Sep 28 2004, 10:55 AM, said:

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.
1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?
Even it is true what you say, pls note next

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%
2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED


Dragan

[jtfanclub]

Dragan, on Sep 29 2004, 02:19 PM, said:

pozeracz, on Sep 28 2004, 10:55 AM, said:

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.
1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?
Even it is true what you say, pls note next

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%
2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED


Dragan

If I'm playing ACOL, my 1D bid is most likely unbalanced. The same is true for any system with a weak NT. There's a lot of hands opened 1D that are balanced in Polish Club, most of them having 16-18 hcp.

What exactly is he supposed to alert? That if his hand is in the 11-14 hcp range (remember, the 1D opening is 11-18) that he's most likely unbalanced? Do you alert that your 1D opening is unbalanced if you have 15-17 hcp, or whatever your no-trump range is?

This is going way beyond pushing it.

[hrothgar]

Dragan, on Sep 29 2004, 10:19 PM, said:

pozeracz, on Sep 28 2004, 10:55 AM, said:

There are several mistakes here, I will try to explain it again.
1. wj2000 1d opening may be ballanced or unballanced

mistakes?
Even it is true what you say, pls note next

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%
2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED


Dragan

Interesting theory, lets see how well this works

If I am playing "standard", my 1♣ opening promises ~ 12-21 HCP, or about 34.45% of all hands.

12 HCP = 23.22%
13 HCP = 20.3%
14 HCP = 16.5%
15 HCP = 12.8%
16 HCP = 9.6%
17 HCP = 7%
18 HCP = 4.6%
19 HCP = 3%
20 HCP = 1.9%
21 HCP = 1.2%

So, from the looks of things, you would advise that I should announce that my range is actually 12-17 HCP since the chance of having 18+ HCP is just too small to worry about?

[the hog]

"mistakes?
Even it is true what you say, pls note next

1. probabilty of 5-3-3-2 is about 9%
2. hands like: AQ KJx Qjx and ♦xxxxx or AQ KJX AQx ♦xxxxx I suppuse you open either 1c either 1nt

so my conclusion is : posibility to 1d be balanced is below 5% and worth to alert as UNBALANCED
Dragan "

Dragan most posters have been quite tolerant until now, but in reality you have as much idea of what you are talking about as the man in the moon. You have not listened to posters who play PC who have told you that all 5332 hands are opened 1D. Furthermore others have told you that in various versions of PC 1D can be a 4 card suit, therefore all 4432 4333 and 4414 shapes with a 4 card D suit up to about 18 are opened 1D. So from where you have dredged up this 5% is known only to yourself.

Stop trying to vindicate your bad result. It was due wholly and solely to atrocious bidding on primarily your part in failing to bid 1S and to a lesser extent on your partner.

[Dragan]

The_Hog, on Sep 29 2004, 07:23 PM, said:

Dragan most posters have been quite tolerant until now, but in reality you have as much idea of what you are talking about as the man in the moon. You have not listened to posters who play PC who have told you that all 5332 hands are opened 1D. Furthermore others have told you that in various versions of PC 1D can be a 4 card suit, therefore all 4432 4333 and 4414 shapes with a 4 card D suit up to about 18 are opened 1D. So from where you have dredged up this 5% is known only to yourself.

Stop trying to vindicate your bad result. It was due wholly and solely to atrocious bidding on primarily your part in failing to bid 1S and to a lesser extent on your partner.

terrible....what does it mean ? I'am not tolerant ?

1. I listen very carefull all posters
2. I listen and polish players with whom I play WJ
3. But I also read official book for WJ by Jassem where is wroted

"
1• Opening

Description:
(a) 12-17 HCP with at least 5 diamonds, or any 4-4-4-1 with 4 diamonds
( 12-14 HCP, 4 diamonds and 5 clubs

Variant (a)
Opening 1• can have a balanced hand and 5 diamonds (5-3-3-2) holding only 12-14 HCP, since we need 15-17 HCP to open 1N. The unbalanced hands with 5 diamonds as well as 3-suiters (4-4-4-1) we open 1• with wider-strength: 12-17 HCP.

Variant (
With 4 diamonds and 5 clubs we open 1• with at most 14 HCP. With stronger we open 1 and follow by rebidding clubs, showing 15 HCP and 5 clubs, and partner can try still to inquire for a 4-card diamond suit."

4. I do not proclaim my opinion as absolutely true, I said it is my conclusion, my opinion, for the difference to the some people here.

5. If someone had better argument or majority is on the other side, i should accept that.

6. Someone said "5% is only knewn to yourself", if that person is so smart let he exactly count that possiblity.


Dragan

[pozeracz]

Dragan, pls understand... In Jassem's book there is "after opps 1d/h/s opening our 1nt is natural, ballanced". 90% players or more play it as 5 in unbided minor and 4 in unbided major. In Jassem's book after dbl on 1nt opening xfers are off. But for 90% of polish players xfers are on. In Jassem's book, when P opens 1nt and opp bids smthing dbl/rdbl is penalty. But many players use negative dbl in such auction. Theory and practice. As other posters told you, there are many varies of polish club, and Jassem's wj2000 is handbook, not bible. What is important: 1d opening = 4+ suit (12-17 or 12-22 hcp)

Ok, example
myhands, 2004-09-25 01:17
We (NS) play wj2000, opps (EW) play wj98
Polish table, I play as "sciemniacz", my Pd is "jakubwj". Hands:
N- sciemniacz (D): 10xxx x xxx AJxxx
E- delewin: Kxxx xxxx A D10xx
S- jakubwj: Jxx A10xx KQ10x Kx
W- barb01: AQ KQJx Jxxxx xx

auction:
N E S W
p - p - 1d - p
p - p


We really play wj2000, 1d was not alerted, opps were not surprised, so? I think, the conclusion is: 1d opening = 4+ diamonds. That is all. For ballanced hands 12-14hcp we open 1c/d, if we have 15-17(18) opening is 1nt. Is it unusual Dragan?

And answering Your question: yes it is true what i say.

cheers

[jdulmage]

First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it.

Secondly, I would allow 3NT -2 to stand and give opps proceedural penalty.

Lastly, I don't see how you managed to go down in that contract, looks like you have 4 hearts, 4 spades, and a club trick at least.

[hrothgar]

jdulmage, on Oct 10 2004, 07:10 PM, said:

First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it.

It is rare that I offer the ACBL as an example of what I LIKE about bridge...
With this said and done:

In ACBL land, players are expected to be familiar with the basics of those systems in common use within the environment that they are playing.

WJ2000 is in VERY common use within BBO.

I agree with you that there are Wolrd Class players who are ignorant about systems that they don't happen to play. However, I don't consider them an example to be emulated. Nor, shoudl their laziness excuse others from doing the basic preparation necessary to play well.

[the hog]

"First off, NO, Advanced+ players do NOT automatically know WJ2000. I know of World Class players who don't know WJ2000 because they don't need to know it."

I don't believe you. If you use the definition that a world class player plays in international competition, then a world class player will have a basic knowledge of Polish Club because he/she will frequently play against it. Perhaps your "world class" players are not world class after all?

[Maaa]

Arent some 2/1 pairs opening 1♦ with 4♦5♣ ?
Well, I asked once a well respected ACBL TD if I should alert - the answer was,
NO,bcs this is a frequent threatment of a big amount of 2/1 pairs, if then I shall
alert the eventual 2♣ rebid.
I do NOT know what the official rules are (acbl).


Shall an Advanced player know the basics of systems in common use?
No idea - but an AbaLucy Clubmember MUST know and also this hand,
this disagreement comes from an AbaLucy PRIVATE tournament.


Greets all MJ

[nikos59]

To Ron:
If you find the Bridge World report (c. 2001) where Larry Cohen
is whining about the use of "foreign" systems after his team
was trounced by the Poles in Maastricht Olympiad (they were
losing by so much that abandoned the match, quite a rare event at this level!) you'll see that at least that world class player declared
not to be familiar with the Polish club, at least back then.

That said, I agree with you about the substance of the matter.

[the hog]

I have read this Nikos, and also his rantings on rgb for which he copped a heap of flack. Cohen at least did not claim he did not even know the rudiments of Polish Club. A poster on this forum claimed that he knew of world class players who knew nothing about PC, which is what I disputed.

[Aljosa]

Maaa, on Oct 10 2004, 06:31 PM, said:

Shall an Advanced player know the basics of systems in common use?
No idea - but an AbaLucy Clubmember MUST know and also this hand, this disagreement comes from an AbaLucy PRIVATE tournament.

Reading this and all previous post's I wondered !?

What is that ABALUCY club ? Some superior club or just usual club ?

[inquiry]

Aljosa, on Oct 12 2004, 11:57 AM, said:

Reading this and all previous post's I wondered !?

What is that ABALUCY club ? Some superior club or just usual club ?

I suspect you will get a lot of different answers to this question. So let me give you what I think is a fair assessment, and I hope this is the end of this inquiry.

Abalucy is a longstanding private club within the BBO. It has a strict entry requirment where new members ahve to be noiminated by existed members. The existing member has a limited number of nominations they can issue, and the nominating member has to confirm that the playing stregnth of the nominated member is "advanced plus" (whatever that is). IT is my understanding (but I maynot be correct), that new members are on probation and their play might be investigated to see if they are average plus.

Since some people are rejected, presumably because they fail this average plus skill test, you can imagine the comparison.. " they would not let me in but I am soooo much better than abalucy member _________ (fill in the blank), who is an intermediate on their best day" and the like. As a private club, Abalucy has a long list of regularily scheduled free tounments for club members. These tourneys are usually well attended.

There are people who absolutely love this club (it has a nice webpage at http://www.abalucybridgeclub.com/ ), and others who dislike it tremendously. But in final analysis, it is just a normal club who has a nomination process and who doesn't accept (or keep) all new members or member applications.

Ben

[rona_]

If I may put in my two cents worth here, since I spend a major part of my time on bbo kibitzing, I would say that the only two clubs that have advanced+ players only as members, are Topflight and Stars.

[calabres]

If I may put in my two cents worth here, since I spend a major part of my time on bbo kibitzing, I would say that the only two clubs that have advanced+ players only as members, are Topflight and Stars.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I only can smile about this kind of comments.I would like to see "oficial" kibitzers prove in playing their skill level .
This kind of insinuations only show the fault of respect to the hundreds and hundreds of players of Abalucy Club. Why is this Club so atacked if it is the biggest internet Bridge Club? Everyday we have a lot of players trying to join as members of this Club, and the major part is not accepted. We try to keep Abalucy a Club where bridge lovers can play in peace. A big number of TopFlight and Stars Members are in Abalucy too.
Please lets try all to avoid this silly wars on behalf of bridge sanity.

Calabres

[rona_]

Calabres, whoever you are, I am not at war with anyone or anything. I stated a well-known fact, and my views. It is allowed here. Kibitzers skills have absolutely nothing to do with this thread, so please post childish remarks somewhere else.

I was responding to Ben's post.I kib many clubs' tournaments and I have seen people who are intermediates play in abalucy. So basically it isn't a club for advanced+ or experts+ as Ben said. I kibbed my teacher the other day and he questioned his opp who said...sorry I am intermediate:) So I don't see what problem you have with my post.

[calabres]

I have nothing more to say.
The actions stays with the people who makes them.

Im a bidge lover, I am member of almost all Clubs in BBO and I respect them all.

Long life to BBO and Bridge in general.

Calabres