[manudude03]

I was doing some thinking over my system with my most regular partner. We had agreed to play both Kaplan Inversion and Gazzilli. I was looking over some hand records and came across a potential problem hand. Say the auction goes:

1H-1NT (5+♠)
2C (clubs or 16+)

What is responder supposed to bid with something like J9xxx x KQxx xxx?

When playing both conventions at the same time, do people generally only play it over 1H-1S or do they just make something up if a hand like the above comes up?

[Elianna]

manudude03, on 2011-June-20, 14:21, said:

I was doing some thinking over my system with my most regular partner. We had agreed to play both Kaplan Inversion and Gazzilli. I was looking over some hand records and came across a potential problem hand. Say the auction goes:

1H-1NT (5+♠)
2C (clubs or 16+)

What is responder supposed to bid with something like J9xxx x KQxx xxx?

When playing both conventions at the same time, do people generally only play it over 1H-1S or do they just make something up if a hand like the above comes up?

I play a different version of Gazilli, but I'm a bit confused by your question. I don't see what KI has to do with this problem. Imagine you WEREN't playing KI. Now you have the auction

1H-1S
2C

You still are stuck with that hand, because that is a pretty bad five card suit to repeat.

As to what to bid with your hand, I don't know. I'm guessing something to do with partnership agreement about followups.

[bluecalm]

2S which is eitehr 6spades or 5-1 majors; KI has nothing to do with it.
This is acutally kind of hand when Gazilli gains despite this ugly rebid because in "standard" bidding you would face either 2NT or 3m rebid and would be force to bid 3NT (or 4D after 3d) which is kinda random at this point in hand.

[straube]

I'd think you'd have to rebid 2H.

I think it's better to divide the better hands initially with a strong club/diamond system instead of on the second round.

[paulg]

You can rebid 2♠ unless you play weak jump shifts and even then it's probably better to play 2♠ as weak. Alternatively you can bid 2♥ and hope partner is strong!

I do think Jxxxx x xxx KQ10x is a worse hand for Gazzilli.

[mgoetze]

bluecalm, on 2011-June-20, 15:01, said:

This is acutally kind of hand when Gazilli gains despite this ugly rebid because in "standard" bidding you would face either 2NT or 3m rebid

...unless opener actually does have a minimum hand with clubs, LOL.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

Just to understand the involved conventions better and because of curiosity on my side:

As far as I understood Gazzilli, Gazilli is on after a forcing NT response to a 1M opening
bid, and it is the cheapes available bid, that happens to be 2C.
As far as I understood KI, KI swaps the meaning of 1S and the forcing NT response.

The reason to play Gazilli is to solve some issues opener faces, since the forcing NT may contain
responding hands with inv. strength.
The reason to play KI is to have the same room after a 1H opening as after a 1S opening.

So the seq.

1H - 1NT (KI = 5+ spades)
2C -

is not a Gazilli seq., the equvivalent seq. would be

1H - 1S (KI <= 4 spades)
1NT - ...

Are the above outlined thoughts and conclusion correct?

With kind regards
Marlowe

PS: I can understand the wish to play 1NT as natural, although that would defeat the purpose of playing KI.

[mgoetze]

P_Marlowe, on 2011-June-21, 03:52, said:

As far as I understood Gazzilli, Gazilli is on after a forcing NT response to a 1M opening
bid, and it is the cheapes available bid, that happens to be 2C.

No, Gazzilli is any 2♣ rebid after a 1M opening, thus

1♥-1♠-2♣
1♥-1NT-2♣
1♠-1NT-2♣

are all the Gazzilli sequences. Whether 1NT is forcing or not is not very relevant.

[Free]

I just rebid 2♠. This doesn't promisse any extra length, it just denies 2+♥. It's not a nice suit to bid, but if you don't consider this a 5 card suit then you should treat it as a 4 card suit and respond 1♠ instead of 1NT. After that you can rebid 2♠ over partner's gazzilli and you may end up in 3m in a 4-4 or 4-3 fit.

[manudude03]

I suppose my concern is if opener has some minimum 1543, it seems like you're going to be stuck in an ugly looking 5-1 fit (worse if 0535). What we had agreed on before was that over 2S (or 2H), 2NT is a relay to 3C to show either a game forcing hand with clubs or 5431 invitational (4 card red suit). I was thinking the idea of making 1H-2S a different range (4-7) and then that would free up 2S as some artificial bid to deal with one of the problem hands (4+♦,3+♣?- always longer diamonds) over which partner can bid 2NT to show a big 2-suited hand (or gamegoing single-suiter) or pass with 2 spades. Alternative responder can rebid 2NT to show club support (3m shows a weak hand with long minor).

1M-1x-2NT is 18-19 balanced. 1M-1x-3y is invitational 5-5. What are your thoughts on the above?

The reason I mentioned KI at the same time was that on the hand I posted, I'd be a lot more comfortable bidding 2S without KI since partner hasn't denied 3 card support.

[glen]

manudude03, on 2011-June-21, 08:13, said:

I suppose my concern is if opener has some minimum 1543, it seems like you're going to be stuck in an ugly looking 5-1 fit (worse if 0535)...

Generally speaking, investing a lot of bidding (actual bids, bidding space, schemes, memory, notes etc.) into finding the best partscores every time has a low return relative to efforts relating to games and slams. Most systems will find themselves in Burns-law-breaking (opps have more trumps) contracts occasionally. For example in standardish, responder would pass 1♥-1♠;-2♣ with 5-1-4-3 minimum, yet 2♣ will contain some 15-18s with no other good bid, sometimes having just 3♣s. Part and parcel of conventions like Gazzilli is that you don't expect the best result always, just that the gains outweigh the losses. However even when responder has to rebid 2♠ over Gazzilli, and not the easier 2♦ and 2♥ rebid sequences, doesn't mean you are in misfit city on all hand types.

[olien]

I know that the 2♣ bid is supposed to be used if following the original gazilli, but it could be modified since you play KI. As an idea, why not something as follows:

1♥ - 1♠:
1NT = ♦ or balanced or any 16+
2♣ = 5+♥ 4+♣ 11-15
2♦ = 6+ ♥
2♥ = 5+♥ 4♠
2♠ = 5+♥ 4+♠ 16+
2NT = some 6/4, 13+-15
3m = 5/5 13+-15

After 1♥ - 1♠// 1NT, 2♣ is the 8+ relay and then:
2♦ = 5+♥ 4+♦ 11-15
2♥ = balanced 11-15
2♠ = **6+♥ 16+**

This structure lets you get out in 2m while only giving up playing 1NT. You also don't get to play exactly 2♥ when responder is very weak and opener has a ♠ reverse. Anyways, just an idea.

[fromageGB]

I play KI and gazzilli, but would hate to be forced to bid 2♥ and play in a 5/1 fit, or 2♠ (showing 6) and playing in that 5/1 fit. Of course I would need a stronger hand to bid the 2♦ inquiry.

However, while I don't like making the 1NT call because of this, it is no help to treat it like a 4 card suit by bidding 1♠. While I could then pass 1NT from partner, he would also make that bid with 4 spades (we have a 2♣ follow-on inquiry) and we would look a bit silly playing in 1NT when we have a 5/4 spade fit.

So - opponents have called the director now for my hesitation - I just bid 1NT. But I may get lucky - partner may still have 6 hearts; if he goes for game we have room to reach the right contract; he may have spade support. On the actual resulting 2♥ contract, if it turns out badly then I shrug and content myself with the times when gazzilli has paid off.

[mattias]

paulg, on 2011-June-21, 01:36, said:

I do think Jxxxx x xxx KQ10x is a worse hand for Gazzilli.

This is why it's a good idea to change the weak options in 2♣ and 2M around and play

1M - 1X

2♣ strong or onesuited
2M major and clubs

[Free]

mattias, on 2011-June-28, 02:05, said:

This is why it's a good idea to change the weak options in 2♣ and 2M around and play

1M - 1X

2♣ strong or onesuited
2M major and clubs

That's a bit short through the corner imo. There are very good reasons not to play this way. Gazzilli isn't a flawless convention, but it will give you an edge more often than it will produce a problem. This makes it a good treatment imo. Reversing the meanings will produce problems more often than the original.

What will you do after 1♥-1NT-2♥ showing 5♥ and 3+♣? Bid 3♣ with the risk of playing a 4-3 fit? It's pretty much the same like after 1♥-1NT-2♣ using the normal meanings.

Something else I was thinking about. There's no reason to worry about rebidding a poor 5 card ♠. When not playing KI the auction would go 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♠, so you're in the same situation. All you need to do is agree that 2♠ doesn't promisse any extra ♠s and you'll be fine most of the time.

[mattias]

Free, on 2011-June-28, 02:56, said:

That's a bit short through the corner imo. There are very good reasons not to play this way. Gazzilli isn't a flawless convention, but it will give you an edge more often than it will produce a problem. This makes it a good treatment imo. Reversing the meanings will produce problems more often than the original.

What will you do after 1♥-1NT-2♥ showing 5♥ and 3+♣? Bid 3♣ with the risk of playing a 4-3 fit? It's pretty much the same like after 1♥-1NT-2♣ using the normal meanings.

Something else I was thinking about. There's no reason to worry about rebidding a poor 5 card ♠. When not playing KI the auction would go 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♠, so you're in the same situation. All you need to do is agree that 2♠ doesn't promisse any extra ♠s and you'll be fine most of the time.

Right, this only works with a semiforcing 1NT, so that 2M would show 4♣. Don't make this switch when playing a forcing 1NT.

[mattias]

Double post.

[fromageGB]

Free, on 2011-June-28, 02:56, said:

What will you do after 1♥-1NT-2♥ showing 5♥ and 3+♣? Bid 3♣ with the risk of playing a 4-3 fit? It's pretty much the same like after 1♥-1NT-2♣ using the normal meanings.

I am not so sure it is unworkable. If you play Gazzilli as being either strong or clubs, you can't play in 2♣ when clubs, but have to play in 3♣. So in the reversed meanings if 2♥ guaranteed 4 clubs, it is no worse. Just alter the meaning so that 2♣ is strong, or one suited, or balanced. Now a 1♥ 1NT 2♥ sequence has a 4 card club suit.

As with normal Gazzilli a very weak responder will not bid 2♦ but something else, so with this version. After 2♦, though, you could have 2♥ single suited, not strong, 2♠ balanced 12-14, 2NT balanced 15/16, and the strong versions bidding at the 3 level. This is assuming you do not open 1NT with a 5 card najor. If you do, the spade/NT rebid can have more precise meanings.

[fromageGB]

Free, on 2011-June-28, 02:56, said:

Something else I was thinking about. There's no reason to worry about rebidding a poor 5 card ♠. When not playing KI the auction would go 1♥-1♠-2♣-2♠, so you're in the same situation. All you need to do is agree that 2♠ doesn't promisse any extra ♠s and you'll be fine most of the time.

On reflection, I think this is a very good idea. I originally hesitated, replied 1NT and rebid 2♥, but now I will compound my felony and correct my bidding to 1NT followed by 2♠.
When it comes to a choice of 5/1 fits, then it it is better to have trumps as the weaker suit in responder's hand imo.

[Free]

fromageGB, on 2011-June-28, 07:27, said:

I am not so sure it is unworkable. If you play Gazzilli as being either strong or clubs, you can't play in 2♣ when clubs, but have to play in 3♣. So in the reversed meanings if 2♥ guaranteed 4 clubs, it is no worse. Just alter the meaning so that 2♣ is strong, or one suited, or balanced. Now a 1♥ 1NT 2♥ sequence has a 4 card club suit.

As with normal Gazzilli a very weak responder will not bid 2♦ but something else, so with this version. After 2♦, though, you could have 2♥ single suited, not strong, 2♠ balanced 12-14, 2NT balanced 15/16, and the strong versions bidding at the 3 level. This is assuming you do not open 1NT with a 5 card najor. If you do, the spade/NT rebid can have more precise meanings.

The biggest drawback of reversed Gazzilli is the handling of 16-17HCP hands opposite a weak hand. As a bonus argument it doesn't respect the fast arrival principle in many cases.
- When opener has 16-17HCP, he has to bid 2♣. Now with the standard Gazzilli responder will rebid 2M on a doubleton which is a playable partscore. Opener will just pass (fast arrival). With reversed Gazzilli responder may bid 2M on a singleton, which requires opener with only 5 card M to bid one more time. This may get the partnership too high or in a poor 2NT contract.
- When opener is singlesuited, then you'll usually just play 2M whatever responder's hand is (sometimes even with a void!). So bidding 1M-1Z-2M is fast arrival to the spot you'll most likely play.