[Hanoi5]

Teams:

---

3♠ is a cue-bid. 3NT also shows a spade cue-bid.

[billw55]

I need to rethink this post.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hanoi5, on 2011-June-02, 12:49, said:

Teams:

---

3♠ is a cue-bid. 3NT also shows a spade cue-bid.

There are a number of things wrong with the auction.
A general problem is using 4NT as RKC instead of 4S!-kickback when Hts are trumps.
That way the 2+hQ reply is 5H ... which can be passed when missing 2 key cards .

However, West has no business taking control with his bare minimum limit raise ( Bergen ).
That honor should go to East-- the Opener -- if he deems necessary.

One auction where Opener might be inclined to go RKC is if Responder had splintered in Clubs.
Shortness-opposite-other shortness yeilds lots of tricks with a big fit and a paucity of hcp:

East West
1H - 4C!
4S! ( RKC ) - 5C ( 1 key card )
5H - pass

[JLOGIC]

Why is east even trying for slam on this hand? It is absurd. On top of that you had poor methods, not just not playing kickback, but west never knew his partner had spade shortness rather than the ace. Of course by far the biggest problem was trying for slam to begin with.

[Cyberyeti]

JLOGIC, on 2011-June-02, 14:10, said:

Why is east even trying for slam on this hand? It is absurd. On top of that you had poor methods, not just not playing kickback, but west never knew his partner had spade shortness rather than the ace. Of course by far the biggest problem was trying for slam to begin with.

Well E probably visualised Axxxx, Axxx, Qxx,x, but yes W should not even think about asking on the heap he has, he probably visualised Ax, KQxxxx, Ax, xxx or better. If W normally plays first round cues first, that would make a lot more sense as his hand looks potentially good opposite a first round spade control.

[aguahombre]

Cyberyeti, on 2011-June-02, 14:32, said:

Well E probably visualised Axxxx, Axxx, Qxx,x,

Why would he visualize 13 dummy points from a partner who showed 10-11?

I would rather show a limit raise based on spade values with this hand than use the 3D gadget (which we don't have, anyway); but Opener is the culprit, no matter what.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-June-02, 15:57

[xxhong]

Well, there are certainly some hands that you can have a good play in 6D, like xx Axxx Qxxx Axx. The problem is that it is not easy to bid. It is probably a good idea to just play 4m as a natural slam try to find this kind of miracle slams. Otherwise, it is wiser to just play 4H, because for more than 95% of times, you just belong to 4H. Also, you not only need two aces, DQ from partner to have a good play in slams, you also need the right aces. I certainly admire those who can find the good slam scientifically. Those who can't find the slam shouldn't be blamed.

Hanoi5, on 2011-June-02, 12:49, said:

Teams:

---

3♠ is a cue-bid. 3NT also shows a spade cue-bid.

[Phil]

I think you need an absolute perfecto for slam after 3♦. I do think that 3♠ should be a shortness ask, and if the East hand were a little better, then it would be OK to look.

[Cyberyeti]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-02, 15:36, said:

Why would he visualize 13 dummy points from a partner who showed 10-11?

I would rather show a limit raise based on spade values with this hand than use the 3D gadget (which we don't have, anyway); but Opener is the culprit, no matter what.

Two aces and a queen added to 10 last time I checked, snd the bid seemed to be 10-11. OP didn't say dummy points (whatever they are), so HCP would be a normal assumption. It's a bit different when you're making a bid that can be passed, but in this case where you can bid on when partner signs off in 3♥ you might as well show your real point count to show you have 10-11 with extra shape, and if partner does start asking, he's going to make the right inferences about how many quacks you're likely to have which he might not do if you've shown this as 12+.

I agree, showing spades is better as partner will realise how bad his stiff spade is.

Playing first round cues before second (which I don't normally, but might decide to do in this case where I only want to give mild encouragement) sorts this, 1♥-3♦-4♦-4♥ will drop trivially at that point if E decides he's worth a mild try and in 5♥ if he has a serious go with a spade cue (known to be a second round control)after that.

[gnasher]

You don't need a singleton or a diamond fit: xxxx Axxx Qx Axx is enough.

[jmcw]

I like the 1♥ bid. After that its all downhill and a richly deserved final contract.

[aguahombre]

Barry Crane's commandment #7 comes to mind. "Don't put cards in partner's hand". The caveat might be: unless your system allows you to find them. This pair doesn't have such a system, so it is easy to "ATB". To East: don't start what you can't finish.

[lamford]

aguahombre, on 2011-June-02, 18:13, said:

Barry Crane's commandment #7 comes to mind. "Don't put cards in partner's hand". The caveat might be: unless your system allows you to find them. This pair doesn't have such a system, so it is easy to "ATB". To East: don't start what you can't finish.

I recall, but could not quickly find on the net, Bob Hamman: "Don't play me for perfect cards, I never have them". That is from memory, so no doubt someone will correct the misquote. I think slam is a bit optimistic on the East hand, but a reasonable method (after any 3-level raise) is to play that 3S is a WET (wastage enquiry try) asking partner in which suit he would have most wastage opposite a singleton. Then 3NT is spades, 4C is clubs, and 4D is diamonds, while 4H is "go away". I see that Phil has suggested something along those lines. After the WET, one can press on if desired. Here West will respond 3NT and East can bid 4H. Instead of 3S, 3NT would be the spade cue.

[Free]

50% West, 50% partnership agreements.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

East, after hearing the spade cue, should assume wastage, and should sign of.
If partner has 2 Aces, he will bid on, because 3S signaled SI oppossite 10-11, and 2 KCs outh to be enough.

Also a main issue is, that the first cue was a cue, that showed either a top
honor or shortage.
West was thinking, that he faces the Ace of spades, which would have fitted nicely.
Remove the ambiquity of the first cue, i.e. let the first cue always show
a top honor, and you will solve lots of those problems.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[kenrexford]

Bergen-type raises eat up space by design. Allowing that intended result to screw you also is rather ill-prepared.

Obviously the corollary to Hamman's Rule should be "But, if you can find out, feel free to ask."

Obviously, as well, each side can visualize a hand from partner where slam makes.

so, methods clearly are the problem. A secondary problem is seeking slam when you know (or should know) that the methods will not provide reliable answers. If some folks will have the methods, but you don't, do not try to correct the problem with methods by hoping for the best. Either apply Hamman's Rule, or discuss the corollary next time.

IMO, any space-grabbing call that deprives the partnership of the ability to distinguish honor-control from shortness-control needs an unwind to grab that distinction back. For instance, a reasoned approach might be to have step one as a relay to show a shortness-based slam try, step two an ask for shortness, and steps 3+ as natural moves:

3♥ = relay to 3♠ (can be broken for discussed reasons), then 3NT = short spade, 4♣ = short club, 4♦ = short diamond serious, 4♥ = short diamonds mild

3♠ = shortness ask

3NT = spades secondary, slam interest
4♣ = clubs secondary slam interest
4♦ = diamonds secondary slam interest

4♥ = to play

[cherdano]

kenrexford, on 2011-June-03, 06:36, said:

3♥ = relay to 3♠

LOL

[kenrexford]

cherdano, on 2011-June-03, 07:55, said:

LOL

Oh yeah! LOL myself.

In that event, 3♠ is the relay with a stiff, to 3NT, with no ability to make the nuanced highest shortness distinction.

3NT a shortness ask.

4♣ and 4♦ second suits.

No ability to show spades-hearts except via shortness or shortness ask.

[Phil]

You don't have room for everything over 3♦ but if you switched 3♣ and 3♦ you would.

- 1♥ - 3♣ - 3♦ - 3♥ - (3♠ /4♣ / 4♦) = shortness and slam try
- 1♥ - 3♣ - 3♠ - shortness ask (3N/4♣/4♦ = LMH, 4♥ denies)
- 1♥ - 3♣ - 4♣ / 4♦ = help suit slam try

In addition, you gain:

- 1♥ - 3♣ - 3♦ - 3♥ - 3N = COG (or maybe serious)
- 1♥ - 3♣ - 3N = help suit slam try in spades.

1♠ - 3♦ works identically

[Zelandakh]

An arguably better solution is to use 2S as the invitational raise with shortage and then 3C can be an invitational raise without shortage. A side benefit is that you can bundle in-between splinters into 2S too. You still have 2NT available for GF raises and 3D as, for example, a mixed raise.

Hence

1H - 2S = INV raise with side shortage or ~16-19 raise with side shortage
2N = asks
... - 3m = INV, 0-1 in minor bid
... - 3H = INV, 0-1 spades
... - 3S = strong, side void
... - 3N = strong, sgl spade
... - 4m = strong, sgl in minor bid

Instead of 2NT you could play that Opener can make a shortage slam try but I think better is for Opener to show a source of tricks here, effectively a natural slam try.