[Phil]

Who gets the charge for this awful slam?

North: AKTxxx Axx J xxx
South: QJxx Qx AQ9 Kxxx

1♠ - 2N*
3♦ - 3♠
3N** - 4♣
4♥ - 4N
5♦ - 6♠

2N is boring old Jacoby
3N is Serious

Thanks

[rduran1216]

North, partner has effectively denied the A of clubs, so 3NT over 3S looks really bad

[mike777]

I dont understand north's bidding with a minimum.

south has a dead minimum.

[ahydra]

For North, if you were pessimistic 3D could be considered an overbid. It's not crazy though because normally a splinter means "if you have a good hand and not much wasted in the splinter suit, we have slam", which is the case here. However 3NT is a HUGE overbid with the 7 loser, minimum HCP hand.

For South (assuming 3S is stronger than 4S), given he has a minimum with a wasted DQ 3S is an overbid.

After both partners overbid it's no wonder the auction spirals too high. I'd say 60% blame to North, 40% to South.

ahydra

[OleBerg]

50/50, but both players bid atrociously.

Until 3♠ it is ok, but both players have then given their hands full justice. And then some.

3NT??? If you absolutely want to overbid, bid 4♥, showing you lack a club-stopper, and only intermidiate values. 3NT has no technical merit over 4♥

4NT??? (Assuming, like ahydra, that 3♠ is stronger than 4♠). Partner has not asked for a diamond stopper, (assuming 3♦ = splinter), but simply checked that you had a club-stopper. No reason to get in his way, if he has a plan.

It is illustrating, that on the combined hands, 4♠ is down on a rainy day.

Both players could have got a 100% for a bad score, if their partner has had his bid.

[Fluffy]

south is close to bidding 4♠ over 3♦, but I Can live with 3♠.

I never played serious 3NT but I imagine that if you can have 20 counts still, it means that if you are qualifying 11 counts into serious then 85%+ of the hands are serious tries wich is very bad.

[karlson]

I'd give 100% to both.

[the hog]

North's bidding was optimistic to say the least.

[Free]

Depending on style the 3♠ bid can be considered correct. 3NT on the other hand is aweful. I blame North at least 80% of the blame.

[rhm]

Free, on 2011-May-05, 04:04, said:

Depending on style the 3♠ bid can be considered correct. 3NT on the other hand is aweful. I blame North at least 80% of the blame.

Interesting. I think this thread is biased against North. I would blame South much more than North.
North was certainly optimistic in the bidding, but he does have

1) a singleton
2) a sixth trump
3) 3 key-cards.

Of course North is minimum in the HCP department, but these are the ingredients for a slam on minimal values.North had every reason to be optimistic.
Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push.

What does South have after a Jacoby raise?

1) a single key-card
2) the queen of trumps
3) A lot of rubbish and no source of tricks

I can not imagine that a competent North would stop below 6♠ when that is a good contract opposite the South holding after South cue-bid 4♣.
South 4NT bid (instead of 4♠) was a clear error in judgment.

80% to South.

Rainer Herrmann

[gwnn]

yay, I (almost) agree with rhm!

I think 3NT is quite silly, but 3♠ was worse.

[karlson]

rhm, on 2011-May-05, 06:29, said:

Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push.

How can that hand not be virtually a slam drive opposite a singleton diamond? Then keycard will let you almost count 13 tricks (north will show the queen). The hand without the ♦A is also clearly worth another slam try to me ; if north bids 4♥ non-serious you will probably get there.

But I do agree that south's bidding was worse.

[mcphee]

North needs to stop playing serious 3NT. While some may argue S should drive to 4S I do not agree especially when playing serious 3N. First the S player did not bid 3N which I assume would also be serious. This knowledge alone should prevent N from searching for a pot of gold. On the auction presented S should just bid 4S after the H cue bid, 4N showed quite the imagination. I would blame north 90% south 10%.

[gnasher]

Does everyone except me know what 3♠ meant?

Over 3♦, responder could cue-bid, bid 3NT, bid 3♠, or bid 4♠. Presumably 4♠ is the worst of the four.

If 3♠ is the next weakest, North shouldn't make any sort of slam try. If 3♠ is the strongest action, North has a pretty good hand, and is worth 3NT.

[kayin801]

If N is unlimited then maybe 4♠ wasn't allowed and 3♠ was just marking time? If 4♠ was allowed with South I would have bid that with AQx in partner's shortness and a mediocre minimum otherwise.

That having been said, 4♥ must describe North's hand perfectly after 3♠: a pretty hand with minimum high card values, diamond shortness, a heart control, and no club stopper! And it's an even better if 3NT is serious!

[aguahombre]

mcphee, on 2011-May-05, 06:39, said:

North needs to stop playing serious 3NT.

Or define it differently. Maybe what we play in situations where game is forced in a Major and we are still at the 3-level isn't "serious 3nt", if this hand is.

We use it to let out the secret that we have a huge hand, not previously shown. Normal cuebidding with decent normal hand (courtesy cue, if you will), simple game with weak opener; and 3NT with heretofor undisclosed 18+ opener. If playing a big club system, then opener might never be the one to use 3NT in a strong sense at all.

AKTXXX AKX X QJX would be a 3NT bid over 3S in my world. That looks serious to me.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2011-May-05, 07:23

[aguahombre]

BTW, I see nothing wrong with South's 3S bid. It allowed North to bid 3NT if he had my example hand, above. In this case, it allowed North to abuse the bid.

[Free]

rhm, on 2011-May-05, 06:29, said:

Interesting. I think this thread is biased against North. I would blame South much more than North.
North was certainly optimistic in the bidding, but he does have

1) a singleton
2) a sixth trump
3) 3 key-cards.

Of course North is minimum in the HCP department, but these are the ingredients for a slam on minimal values.North had every reason to be optimistic.
Give partner ♠xxxx,♥Kx,♦Axx,♣AKQx and 7♠ looks great. Substitute the ♦A for a small card or the ♣A for the ♣J and 6♠ is still almost lay-down. You are not likely to reach these slams, if North does not push.

What does South have after a Jacoby raise?

1) a single key-card
2) the queen of trumps
3) A lot of rubbish and no source of tricks

I can not imagine that a competent North would stop below 6♠ when that is a good contract opposite the South holding after South cue-bid 4♣.
South 4NT bid (instead of 4♠) was a clear error in judgment.

80% to South.

Rainer Herrmann

You're right that North has a nice hand, but it's not worth a serious 3NT imo. He can also just cuebid 4♥ which shows his hand VERY nicely: still slam interest (the points you make), no ♣ cue and a singleton ♦. South will already know enough not to try for slam, a ♣ lead could already beat the contract. Note that South has already denied a ♥ control by bidding 3♠, so in order to get to a makeable slam South needs a lot of extra's to cover all the ♣ losers and at least 1 ♥ loser. With all these extra's, South will move over 4♥ for sure.

South is pretty much obligated to cuebid after the serious 3NT. If he just signs off in 4♠ then North may have an awkward decision to make if he has his values but 2 quick losers in ♣ for example (AKTxxx-AKx-J-Qxx is definitely possible). I agree with you that South should've bid 4♠ instead of 4NT. The ♦ cue is already known, so there's no reason to go past 4♠. Bidding 4♠ here would show he's absolutely minimum.

So, there are 3 key moments:
- 3♠: this can be argued, but playing serious/frivolous 3NT I prefer to save space. Although he's absolutely minimum, South denies a ♥ cue and is temporizing. For me, 3♠ acts like a frivolous 3NT because South can also start cuebidding immediately. This way opener can signoff, show light slam interest, or show serious slam interest, after which responder can re-evaluate his hand. Either way it's still possible to cuebid at 4-level, which you can't by bidding 4♠.
- 3NT: the hand can't be considered a hand with serious slam interest imo, after South denied a ♥ cue. Big blunder imo. Better (imo) would be 4♥, which shows light slam interest and shows he's afraid of ♣s.
- 4NT: South should've bid 4♠ to deny any further interest.

80% to North is perhaps too high, but I won't go under 65%.

[pooltuna]

I would go with South, the Jacoby bidder, as most at fault. Although I don't know what agreements the pair has about the 3♠ call

[Fluffy]

Rainer said: 1) A singleton

And then I though singleton is the worst holding you can have when you have shown shortness. But what do I know?