[straube]

We play that a penalty double puts us into a force through 2H (opps have to bid 2S or higher for advancer's bid not to be forcing)

We also play takeout doubles "until a takeout dbl has been passed for penalty" at which point subsequent doubles are penalty. A little confused how that works out.


1N X 2C 2D removes the force, right? Opener's subsequent doubles are takeout

1N X 2C P P X is not strictly takeout, right? It just says opener would not have removed responder's penalty double. So wide-ranging in terms of holding their suit, right?

1N X 2C X 2D X is takeout? Just confused because advancer shows a takeout of clubs, so why shouldn't the dbl be penalty? If not, then the bidding continues P P and what does advancer do with 4441?

[gnasher]

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1N X 2C 2D removes the force, right? Opener's subsequent doubles are takeout

Probably, but this should be covered by a different set of rules. If we get another chance to double, that means that they've competed voluntarily, so it's just a normal competitive auction.

If you haven't already, you should agree what advancer does over 2♣ with a bad hand. Does he bid straight away, or does he wait for partner to make a takeout double and then bid? Either method is playable. I prefer the second one.

Quote

1N X 2C P P X is not strictly takeout, right? It just says opener would not have removed responder's penalty double. So wide-ranging in terms of holding their suit, right?

In this context, when people play the double as "I would not have removed a penalty double", they usually describe it as "takeout".

Others play the double as suggesting a normal takeout-double shape, and they don't routinely double just because they would have passed a penalty double. Naturally, these people also call their double "takeout".

I prefer the second style, but again either is playable.

Quote

1N X 2C X 2D X is takeout? Just confused because advancer shows a takeout of clubs, so why shouldn't the dbl be penalty? If not, then the bidding continues P P and what does advancer do with 4441?

I suggest that you change your rule to "Takeout if advancer hasn't shown values, penalties if advancer has shown values. Passing a takeout double constitutes showing values."

If you make that change, you should consider whether leaving in a double of 1NT constitutes showing values. For example, in these two sequences:

1NT pass pass dbl
pass pass 2C

or

1NT dbl pass pass
2C

[straube]

Thanks gnasher

Thinking of these rules....

1) double of a weak NT creates a force. We can't let the opponents play 2H or less undoubled UNLESS advancer removes the force by bidding a suit. If responder bids 2S or higher immediately, we are not in a force.

2) if advancer leaves the double in OR if he passes or doubles responder's bid of 2H or lower, he shows about 5 hcps and the opponents cannot play anything undoubled. It's important then for advancer to bid out with a bad hand.

3) both advancer and responder's first double of a direct suit bid is takeout (1-2 in suit). Subsequent doubles by both are cooperative or penalty (3+). Balancing doubles show 2+ and are wide-ranging in shape; partner should play for 2.

4) if responder bids 2S or higher immediately, we are not in a force. Double by either partner is takeout

For example....
.....1N X 2C X 2H X are takeout of clubs and hearts respectively
.....1N X 2C X 2H P P X shows some hearts
.....1N X 2C P P X shows that opener would not remove responder's penalty double
.....1N X P 2C 2H X is takeout and we are in a normal competitive auction because advancer has removed the force
.....1N X 2C X P P 2H X is penalty

.

[CSGibson]

 straube, on 2011-April-30, 21:00, said:

We play that a penalty double puts us into a force through 2H (opps have to bid 2S or higher for advancer's bid not to be forcing)

We also play takeout doubles "until a takeout dbl has been passed for penalty" at which point subsequent doubles are penalty. A little confused how that works out.


1N X 2C 2D removes the force, right? Opener's subsequent doubles are takeout

1N X 2C P P X is not strictly takeout, right? It just says opener would not have removed responder's penalty double. So wide-ranging in terms of holding their suit, right?

1N X 2C X 2D X is takeout? Just confused because advancer shows a takeout of clubs, so why shouldn't the dbl be penalty? If not, then the bidding continues P P and what does advancer do with 4441?

In general, what my partner and I do is pretend that the X was an opening NT, and play our same structure over interference, pretending that the original 1N opener had passed.

With that in mind, (1N)-X-(2C)-2D would be natural and to play for us, assuming 2C showed clubs. Opener's subsequent doubles show a max willing to compete in diamonds for us.

(1N)-X-(2C)-P,
(P)-X would be takeout for us, since it would be analogous to 1N (2C)-P-(p), X, which we define as take-out.

On the other hand, (1N)-X-(2C)-X-(2D)-X would be penalty oriented for us, analogous to a 1N-(2C)-X-(2D)-X auction.

While this may not be the best structure, it has the benefit of clarity for us, as our agreements over 1N interference are very well spelled out in our system notes.

[straube]

Defending 1N after a double

A direct double promises 15 hcps or 14 with an attractive lead. A balancing double promises 14 hcps. Continuations are the same regardless of whether direct or balancing.

A double puts us into a temporary force in that the next hand can’t bid 2H or less and play the hand undoubled. Basically, advancer is compelled to make a decision over an intervening 2H or less bid. With a bad hand (0-4), advancer should compete at the 2-level (even in a 3-cd suit) or use transfer lebensohl (2N) to escape to a suit at the 3-level.

Example…

1N P P X 2H

With xxx xxx Kxxxx xx advancer bids 2N and then corrects 3C to 3D

Failure to compete immediately creates a different kind of force. The force is not through 2H any more. The force is that we must play the hand or they must play the hand doubled. We should have at least parity for hcps and treat this as our hand.

So

1N X P P

creates a force just as

1N X 2C P

Again, now we must play the contract or double for penalties.

After a force has been created or after the opponents have bid 2H or less, each of us is allowed one direct-seat takeout double. The direct-seat takeout double usually promises exactly 2 cds in the opponent’s suit (4441 is problematic and we must make a choice at the table) and partner will usually take out with fewer than four.

Examples…

1N dbl 2D dbl shows 2 diamonds
1N dbl P P 2H dbl shows 2 hearts

Also…

1N dbl 2D dbl 2S dbl advancer shows 2 diamonds and doubler shows 2 spades

In balancing seat, the double promises at least 2 cds. In the literature it is often described as takeout, but it is really wide-ranging.

1N dbl 2C P P dbl shows 2 or more clubs

Often at this point, the double will be left in for penalty, but not necessarily. Advancer may remove and this will indicate 2 places to play. For example….

1N dbl 2C P P dbl P 2H would tend to indicate 4 hearts and 4 spades

Once we run out of takeout doubles (each is only allowed one) or once a suit contract has been passed for penalty, subsequent doubles are all penalty oriented and direct-seat passes generally indicate 3 of their suit.

For example

1N dbl 2C dbl P P 2D dbl 2H P

In this auction, advancer has shown 2 clubs and 4 diamonds and opener has shown 4 clubs and 2 or 3 hearts.

Note that 2N is a possible contract for us to play (after a runout), as is any suit contract.

Also note that transfer Lebensohl is on for the passed hand as well…

1N P P dbl 2C 3D would be GI+ in hearts

After 1N P 2C dbl retains the same meaning and our continuations are the same, excepting that advancer must bid 2N (transfer Lebensohl) with a bust and a club preference as a pass would put us in a forcing situation.

After 1N P 2D on up, we use doubles as takeout (against natural) and opening hand with that suit (against artificial)

[Zelandakh]

Just to clarify something in gnasher's post, when pass is forcing then it is usual (always?) for X to show a hand that would have passed a penalty double, whereas if pass is not forcing it is normal to play a second X as "takeout or extras", accepting that they sometimes get to play undoubled in a 7 (or less) card fit. As he says, both methods are playable; it is even possible to play method one when they are nv and method two when they are vul. Since straube has specified forcing passes I would assume that the second double is of the "any hand that would have passed a pen double" type.

[straube]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-May-05, 13:27, said:

Just to clarify something in gnasher's post, when pass is forcing then it is usual (always?) for X to show a hand that would have passed a penalty double, whereas if pass is not forcing it is normal to play a second X as "takeout or extras", accepting that they sometimes get to play undoubled in a 7 (or less) card fit. As he says, both methods are playable; it is even possible to play method one when they are nv and method two when they are vul. Since straube has specified forcing passes I would assume that the second double is of the "any hand that would have passed a pen double" type.

Yes, the indirect seat (balancing) double is "any hand that would have passed a pen double" type hand.