[bluejak]

A clear and obvious pass if it is an optional double.

But "takeout or penalty I have to decide" is nothing like an optional double and I would ask exactly what it means. Well, since it seems to be my partner I would find out what I am playing.

So, please tell us, how does my partner play this double, please?

[Cascade]

 blackshoe, on 2011-April-04, 06:35, said:

It wasn't described (by the players at the table) as "optional" — that was something Cascade threw in. So I don't think the question 'what does "optional" mean?' is relevant. The question is whether "takeout or penalty, I have to decide" is accurate.

Assuming it is accurate, I bid 4♦. I consider passing.

To be clear.

The double was described by the partner of the doubler as "takeout or penalty I have to decide" during the auction. Later when the director was at the table and the description was repeated the doubler added "that is correct we play optional doubles". I guess the options are "takeout" or "penalty".

[Cascade]

 aguahombre, on 2011-April-04, 07:20, said:

Since the question is in "rulings", I will guess that East passed. And this time opener did not have an 8-bagger & catch the perfect dummy -- so, when East applied the LOTT, it worked and the opponents were unhappy.

Well kind of ...

This was board seven of a ten board match.

---

Two boards earlier ...

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Again the double was optional or the same as seven. Well technically this board was played first and the descriptions were given on this board and when board seven came along the explanation was that the double was the same as on board five.

The major problem was that on board five the double came an agreed 30+ seconds after the 4♠ bid was made. There was a stop card procedure in place which was used correctly so that means the double was in excess of 20 seconds after the removal of the stop card. This double was pulled.

Whereas on board seven the double came during the ten seconds that the stop card was still on the table. In the doublers own words "almost immediately after he bid". This double was left in.

[aguahombre]

Without board five having preceeded, board 7 is what it is.

But now (with #5) we know how they handle two-suiters opposite preempts. How does the doubler's presentation vary when he has support for all 3 unbid suits? The method does have the advantage of saving a NT overcall for something else

[nige1]

 Cascade, on 2011-April-03, 14:25, said:

IMPs against a Datum converted to VPs.
Double is optional - described at the table as "takeout or penalty I have to decide".
What call do you make?
What other calls do you consider making?
If you consider it relevant, in a similar situation with a 2=4=3=4 3-count
earlier in the match you pulled a double of 4♠ to 5♣
but that time the vulnerability was favourable.

---

Does "Optional" mean:

• A vaguely competitive pudding with three cards (or honour doubleton) in opponents' suit. Then _P = 10, 2N = 5, 3♦ = 4.
• Either clear penalty or clear take-out and advancer is meant to judge, from his own hand, which is the more likely. Then 3♦ = 10, _P = 7.

The earlier auction may be relevant, but IMO, at a higher level, the take-out interpretation was more likely. Also, although the penalty risk was higher, the up-side of bidding and making a game was greater.

 Cascade, on 2011-April-04, 13:46, said:

The major problem was that on board five the double came an agreed 30+ seconds after the 4♠ bid was made. There was a stop card procedure in place which was used correctly so that means the double was in excess of 20 seconds after the removal of the stop card. This double was pulled. Whereas on board seven the double came during the ten seconds that the stop card was still on the table. In the doublers own words "almost immediately after he bid". This double was left in.

I've now read Cascade's second post and agree that the tempo-changes should arouse the Director's suspicions.

[aguahombre]

never had an insufficient bid get a 10 before. Spades are the pointy ones, clubs are the roundy guys.

[mycroft]

"takeout or penalty, I'm to guess which" - is a good agreement (that I've never played), but (as we see here) it is somewhat WeaSeL-able. As a TD, I'd be sensitive to that - as a player, even more so. The second hand in 10 would have me very "interested". (But I've been known to call the TD to report a hesitation after a skip bid, and after them saying it was within the 10 seconds, adding "yeah, but this is the fourth skip bid I've made, and this is the first time his call hasn't been on the table before my STOP card was put away (ACBL, so that means within 2 seconds)").

Playing that, if given to me as a problem, I'm pulling 3Sx. Partner doesn't have a penalty double (well, okay, spades might be 6=4=0=3 around the table, but they're vul, not likely), so it's takeout. So, at IMPs, I take it out. Dummy needs one entry and the ST to pick up trumps, and that's 8 of their 9 tricks already. At matchpoints, I might leave it in as "well, -730 might be our best score, and if we're not in frying-pan-and-fire territory, I probably have enough defence to go plus, and +200 is better than +130 - it's certainly better than -x00). My opinion only, of course.

The other board, I'm taking it out even more.

Looking at west, though, I'm surprised. I would have thought that the extra thought was on the balanced hand - the one that almost certainly will be guessed wrong by partner (if partner has few trumps, he's going to leave it in as penalty when they have a 9- or 10-card fit; if partner has more trumps, he'll take it out when it's right to defend). Conversely I would think that double, if double it was going to be, would be automatic on the minor two-suiter (okay, I'm with the rest of the 4NT bidders, myself, but if double is my only multi-way offensive call, then double is pretty clear).

[nige1]

 aguahombre, on 2011-April-04, 16:05, said:

never had an insufficient bid get a 10 before. Spades are the pointy ones, clubs are the roundy guys.

Amended assessment::

• Competitive (pudding with three cards or honour doubleton in opponents' suit). Then _P = 10, 3N = 5, 4♦ = 4.
• Either clear penalty or clear take-out (advancer is meant to judge, from his own hand, which is the more likely). Then 4♦ = 10, _P = 7.

[1eyedjack]

Deleted

[gwnn]

so was it takeout or penalty this hand?