[uday]

Just looking to see what people think to try to settle a debate.

Currently, we log some public chat, and we use this to resolve questions like "what really happened at this table?" when people write in with complaints.

There is a whole class of complaints that we have trouble with. People complain that someone was abusive in private chat, for instance, and we cannot confirm or deny this from our existing logs.

Do you think we should start logging private chat? We can assume that at least two people will have access to the chat logs - uday, and whoever is managing abuse@.

[hrothgar]

Hi Uday

It might be possible to finesse the whole issue.

For example: Log "private" chat on local users machines. Store a hash of the digest on the BBO server. If required, you can then recover the private log and use the hash to ensure that none of the information was modified...

[ack_hh]

Many people are not able to Cut&Paste text
without modifying it - besides the fact that
the software should provide some means to
send some chat log towards BBO in an easy way -
and how to determine the hash of some partial text?

IMHO private chat must be encoded through
a safe algorithm, and each local client must
somehow provide a private key which has to
be sent to abuse@ so that only chat which
"fits" to the private key can be decoded.

[ack_hh]

I voted for "Log all chat", but all users must be
clearly informed WHAT will be logged, HOW (and how long)
it will be logged, and WHO will have access to the log files.

All parties involved in a certain chat must be informed
in case the chat is reviewed.

Chat rooms and partnership bidding tables
should remain private area.

[inquiry]

This is a touchy subject. A person has no right to expect that something said publically for all to "hear" (or in this case read) will remain private. A person who sends a nasty remark to a person in private should be aware at least of the possibility of a screenshot being taken and sent to abuse... But a person having a pleseant but potentially embarrashing conversation with a thrid party in private should not have to worry about about that being logged....

What if I was discussing some ohter yellow with someone in private. Maybe agreeing that their action was wrong? What if I was questioning in private chat the action taken by abuse against someone (or not taken). Would I necessarily like the thought that my private chat, which was meant to be private, might be dredge up? This requires some careful thinking....not that I am totally against the idea, but for now, mark me as skeptical what members give up (freedom of concern) will be worth the small advantage (checking rudeness in private chat, or catching potential cheaters using private chat rather than some other form of communication).

Ben

[Gerardo]

No private chat log, but people can provide their own.

Put a SMTP server on BBO server, use SMTP to send the logs DIRECTLY from the BBO client, from the chat buffer (maybe on a non standard port).

Easily mockable, you can add

• A hash, a Richard suggested
  
• an authentication key (PGP, GPG, X.509, other) [requires some infrastructure]
  
• other stronger measures, o a mix of them

to make it harder.

Cons: Personal unrelated conversations could be included on this.

[epeeist]

So long as people are told ahead of time (in tournament description or rules) I have no problem with logging private chat (in tournaments only, not sure whether I agree with doing so in MBC), so long as after some set period of time it gets deleted by BBO (unless needed to resolve a complaint).

I've never received any private chat which I thought was abusive or otherwise worth reporting (I have had some from opponents that led me to set them as "enemies" but that was it... ). Contrariwise, I don't think I've ever said something to opponents that I'd be worried or afraid of having logged. A few attempts at unfunny jokes, maybe, but that's it.

But if I did ever receive abusive chat, it would be nice to have had it logged. Closest I ever came to needing it was in situation I described a while back about an amusing TD call (I privately chatted to my opponents to clarify what my alerted bid meant, they thought it was public telling my p what my bid meant). But if the situation had been different, e.g. opps claimed my description of bid wrong, it would have been nice to be able to cite my private chat and what I'd said.

[mink]

I would log private chat in tourneys and team fights, and the director should be able to download the chat for a selected round and table. This is needed to determine if explainations were given correctly, and if and how they were requested. The chat log should contain the bids and cards played and the explainations attached to the bids. Each entry in the log should be preceeded by a time stamp.

Karl

[1eyedjack]

Develop software that allows for the possibility of logging private chat.
Disable the software in main playing area by default, but allow individuals the power to log private chat that they are privvy to.
In tourneys, allow tourney host the option of enabling logging or disabling logging on a global tourney by tourney basis (but individuals would still be able to enable personal logging of private chat to which they are privvy).
Tourney host to be encouraged to display whether private logging is enabled (perhaps force it in the tourney summary, ie method of scoring area).
Individual players can then vote with their feet.

[scoob]

this is a public server, that we do not pay for

nowhere on the site should any of us expect any form of privacy. i say go ahead and log everything that you feel you need to in any way that you need to.

even screenshots can be manipulated (if you don't believe me, provide me a screenshot of yourself chatting and i'll have you proclaiming your love for Cher inside of 10 minutes)

[rona_]

I agree with Scoob. Go ahead and log all chat...I vote for that. I am sure that you will make sure that all the members are aware of it.

[1eyedjack]

scoob, on Aug 28 2004, 12:46 PM, said:

this is a public server, that we do not pay for

nowhere on the site should any of us expect any form of privacy.  i say go ahead and log everything that you feel you need to in any way that you need to.

If you are suggesting that we have no *rights* because we pay nothing for the service then you are right, in all but one respect: The one right that you cannot take away from a user is the right to take his custom elsewhere.

If the objective of the supplier is to maximise its attractiveness to a customer-base, even though the customers are paying nothing for the service, then it is entirely valid for the supplier to research the effect that logging of private chat might have on that attraction.

[luke warm]

i'm against logging all private chat, something about it just grates on me... however, i do think it's reasonable to log all chat in a tourney environment

[doofik]

The fact that I don't pay for BBO doesn't necessarily surrender my expectation of privacy. That being said and having been on BBO for quite some time now, it is my feeling that 95% of players are perfectly fine. So if you're asking that that majority gives up its expectation of privacy for the 5% then I've got a problem.

Jola

[Abadaba]

This one is about as tricky as they come.

As a TD I know logging private chat would solve a myriad of problems that do come up -

Having said that - My fear is it would encourage private messenger programs even more and those are the biggest problem we have.

I would love to see you being able to keep private chat on some secret server and only be able to look at it if some big problem arises and then no one but Fred or Uday having the keys to the cookie jar.

[Rain]

I have yet to see results of this poll, but I suggest that results are not representational of the bbo population; I think it would be fair to say that users who post here have a minimum level of technical expertise, and will be able to understand how to take screenshots (which is the only other less editable log I look at to settle disputes at the moment, apart from BBO's current log of public chat.)

I don't like the idea of BBO logging any form of private chat, but I feel any form of public chat, including those said in chat rooms or private bridge clubs should be logged. Private should be private. However, we still need an unabusable way of presenting evidence, and this has to be simple enough for all to use.

In order of preference:

1) I suggest having a little button in the client, perhaps next to the HELP button. When clicked, it makes an image/record of the screen, just like the screenshot does, and sends it automatically to BBO. (User will have the option of choosing whether to *really* send their file, in case they've misclicked on it) Users who persist in abusing this feature will probably be punished

I prefer my idea to Richard's because it simplifies work for BB. Scrolling through 3 days of chat looking for a particular conversation can't be any fun.

2) Richard's idea, but only if its easy to read. Users may also have to provide their chat logs, as attachments? Its not difficult explaining how to locate and attach files, but its also quite time consuming.

3) Log all chat if the above 2 suggestions are too hard to implement, or users can't get the hang of this. This is scary, may drive people to IM, but since our aim here is to prevent abusive private chat, we should not care whether people are driven to communicate with IM or not.



Rain

[hotShot]

I think the best way would be to add an "report to abuse/director" Button that sends last few lines from privat/public chat to the server.
It would be great if the transmitted chat sniplet could be shown in confirmation box first.
If the confimation does not happen, the chat-buffer should be erased, so that this chat can not be send any more. (To prevent trying to snip the provocation out.)

This way you don't have to log privat chat and still get "true" chat messages.
Sending it to the director might help in zero tolerance cases.

[paulhar]

Rain, on Sep 1 2004, 04:28 PM, said:

1) I suggest having a little button in the client, perhaps next to the HELP button. When clicked, it makes an image/record of the screen, just like the screenshot does, and sends it automatically to BBO. (User will have the option of choosing whether to *really* send their file, in case they've misclicked on it) Users who persist in abusing this feature will probably be punished

I have a possible improvement. The BBO system allegedly knows everybody's E-mail address. Rather than send it to abuse, it sends you your own screenshot (or the last 50 lines of chat, or something) after 24 hours. You have the option in your E-mail to click a link and send it to BBO abuse.

I imagine that this will save a lot of such correspondence since I know several times I have wanted to send something to abuse but after a cooling off period, it seemed more like a misunderstanding than abusive chat. This frequently happens with language barriors; and real meanings often come out after the fact. If the screenshot went to abuse, it would be too late.

[luke warm]

i just voted and was (somewhat) surprised to see that most want to log all chat... fwiw i'd like to go on record as being *totally* against that... even tho there have been some good points made, remember we have the ability to take a screen shot of any offending chat and send it in

another thing, everyone i know knows how to edit chat logs... i guess a screen shot can be edited also, but certainly not as easily

[uday]

Quote

The BBO system allegedly knows everybody's E-mail address

N. We allow people to enter an email address for the benefit of other users. In a gentler time that might have been a good idea, but now most people don't bother entering anything valid in here.