[straube]

We play a relay system but we have trouble after partner raises...

xxxx
xxxx
AKx
AJ

opposite

A
AKQxx
Qxxx
Kxx

After 1D-1H, 2H (showing a 10-12 raise with four hearts or 3 hearts and spade shortness...

2N-GF ask-3D shows a balanced raise with four trump

I can use 3H as an ask for queen points and then use denial cue bids or I can use 3S as RKC

Unfortunately, I really need to know that partner has a doubleton club.

Suggestions? How can we improve our continuations?

[TimG]

Don't you have a way to ask about 3rd round club control after RKC?

Something like:

3♠-4♦ RKC; 2 without
4♠-5♦ confirm all keycards; ♦K, not ♣K
6♣-7♥ got 2nd round control of clubs?; why yes, I do

[mtvesuvius]

3♠ RKC seems like the dream agreement here, a simple 3rd round control ask will get you where you want:

1♦ - 1♥
2♥ - 2N
3♦ - 3♠
4♦ - 4♠ (King ask)
5♦ - 6♣ (DK, no others/3rd round ♣ control ask)
7♥ - P (Yes - Doubleton/OK great!)

As a side note, do we really want to be in the grand? Needs either 2-2 trumps or 3-3 diamonds, not too awful I suppose though, around 78%?

Without 3♠ as RKC, it becomes extremely hard to find, and I cannot think of an auction to get us there confidently.

EDIT: Looks like Tim beat me by 3 minutes while I was typing, lol

[TimG]

With 3-1 trumps, you get a little extra vig of 4 diamonds and 3 trumps in the same hand.

[mtvesuvius]

TimG, on 2010-November-21, 18:50, said:

With 3-1 trumps, you get a little extra vig of 4 diamonds and 3 trumps in the same hand.

True, and hands that have 6♣ and 4♦ or 5♠ and 4♦ or a possible double squeeze, albeit unlikely, should bring 7♥ to around 82% or so I guess... I suck at math

[straube]

ok. So basically if partner denies the king of any suit, a re-ask of that suit asks for third round control.

Would Qxx count or only xx? And how do we tell the difference?

[mtvesuvius]

straube, on 2010-November-21, 18:57, said:

ok. So basically if partner denies the king of any suit, a re-ask of that suit asks for third round control.

Would Qxx count or only xx? And how do we tell the difference? Because we don't want to be in 7H with Axx opposite Qxx clubs.

Yes, and in general, if we had the chance to ask for kings, and fail to do so, it is also a 3rd round control ask.

With Qxx, partner can bid 6N. By bidding 7x, it shows a doubleton.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

And for those who may need an explanation, 6♣ was a 3rd-Rnd-Ctrl-ask ( in the bid suit ) because 5♠( a 2nd specific K-ask) was by-passed .

[mtvesuvius]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-21, 18:59, said:

And for those who may need an explanation, 6♣ was a 3rd-Rnd-Ctrl-ask ( in the bid suit ) because 5♠( a 2nd specific K-ask) was by-passed .

That is true, but partner also denied the ♣K already with his 5♦ call.

[TimG]

In this case, opener has shown ♦AK, ♣A and 10-12, no more king asks make any sense; I would expect 5♠ after 5♦ to ask for 3rd round spade control.

straube, on 2010-November-21, 18:57, said:

ok. So basically if partner denies the king of any suit, a re-ask of that suit asks for third round control.

Would Qxx count or only xx? And how do we tell the difference?

I don't think partner needs to deny the king in a suit in order to be able to ask about 3rd round control; 6♦ over 5♦ in the suggested auctions would ask for 3rd round diamond control.

[straube]

ok. many thanks for the help. We haven't incorporated control asks for RKC though I've read a bit about them.

[TimG]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2010-November-21, 18:59, said:

And for those who may need an explanation, 6♣ was a 3rd-Rnd-Ctrl-ask ( in the bid suit ) because 5♠( a 2nd specific K-ask) was by-passed .

Wouldn't bidding 5♥ over 5♦ be the most efficient way to find out about the ♠K (assuming opener could hold it)? This is not an auction that can stop at the five level.

So, even without the impossibility of opener holding 14 HCP in the actual case, I would expect 5♠ to be a 3rd round control ask.

[straube]

1D-1S
2S-2N......................................GF ask
3D-3S...........bal......................RKC
4C-4D..........0 or 4..................Q ask
5C-5D..........y, CK....................asks DK
6C.................DK, no HK
.....................but also 3rd
.....................rd club control

Is this right? If he has possession of the asked for card (the DK), he spirals on to show also the CQ or the KX of clubs.

Or should he stop at 4H to deny the HK?

[Cyberyeti]

mtvesuvius, on 2010-November-21, 18:44, said:

3♠ RKC seems like the dream agreement here, a simple 3rd round control ask will get you where you want:

1♦ - 1♥
2♥ - 2N
3♦ - 3♠
4♦ - 4♠ (King ask)
5♦ - 6♣ (DK, no others/3rd round ♣ control ask)
7♥ - P (Yes - Doubleton/OK great!)

As a side note, do we really want to be in the grand? Needs either 2-2 trumps or 3-3 diamonds, not too awful I suppose though, around 78%?

Without 3♠ as RKC, it becomes extremely hard to find, and I cannot think of an auction to get us there confidently.

EDIT: Looks like Tim beat me by 3 minutes while I was typing, lol

I'm not sure I agree with your maths method (as you don't mention the club position, although it's close to the right answer), ♥2-2 is 40.7% + ♥3-1 (49.74%) x ♦3-3(35.53% ignoring the fact that hearts 3-1 distorts this slightly) = 58.37%. The extra chance that the same hand has 4+ ♦ and 3 ♥ is chance of 3-1 ♥ (49.74%) x (chance of holding 4+ ♦ given that you hold 3 hearts) (22.91%), less a tiny bit for the chance of you holding 3 hearts, 6 diamonds and being on lead, so it comes out overall around 70%. But you're better off just drawing trumps in 3 rounds if they're 3-1, cashing 3 diamonds and then hooking the ♣J if the ♦ misbehave for 58.37% plus half of the rest, ie 79.19%