[rbouskila]

1♦ - 1♥
1NT - 2♦ (1)
2NT (2) - 3♦ (3)
3♥ (4) - 3♠ (5)

System is 2/1, 2 way checkback. I am West, and rebid 1nt with hands with 4 spades and many hands with 3 hearts. I have some questions about the auction:

1. GF.
2. Question: Is opener ever allowed to rebid anything other than 2NT here (assuming he has a normal weak NT hand and not 4 spades or 3 hearts)?
3. What does this bid show?
4. What does this bid show?
5. What does this bid show?

Edit. Specifically, is anyone promising slam/slam try values yet, or is it possible that we could still just be fishing around to try to find the right game?

[Fluffy]

2) 3♣ 2254, 3♦ 3253
3) 4+ diamonds
4) ♥A/♥K
5) ♠A/♠K spade singleton is also possible

[rbouskila]

I'd rebid 2♣, not 1NT, with 2254.

[Fluffy]

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

I'd rebid 2♣, not 1NT, with 2254.

Most people rebid 1NT, but they are wrong, what you should do is use your judgement and see that

xx
Ax
KQ10xx
KJ10x

is a 2 suiter (2♣)

while

Qx
K10
Axxxx
Kxxx

is a balanced hand (1NT)

[OleBerg]

2) Yes, three of a minor with 5 cards and a good reason.
3) Diamonds.
4) Doubleton in hearts, almost always with an honour, and a hand suitable for a 5-2 thrumph-suit. (Which often means a hand with few intermidiates.)
5) Last train, still doubt about the final denomination.

I wouldn't bet my head on 4 and 5 with a pick-up partner.

[gnasher]

(2) Yes, if you might have rebid 1NT with 2254 or with six diamonds; otherwise no.
(3) Five hearts and four or more diamonds; either doubt about which game to play in, or a slam try.
(4) ♥Hx, suggesting a 5-2 fit
(5) Probably 3541, either investigating the best game or making a slam try; might also be a cue-bid in a s542.

If, like me, you dislike this ambiguity about responder's objectives, you can avoid it with a little more sophistication. Play that 2♦ forces 2♥, then have responder show his hand, like this:

2♦-2♥-2♠ forces 2NT, then
- New suit = natural, only game interest
- 3♥ = non-solid 6-card suit, choice of games
- 3NT = solid 6-card suit, choice of games

2♦-2♥-2NT = balanced slam try

2♦-2♥-3any = natural, slam try

2♦-2♥-3NT = 5 hearts, choice of games

(I actually play a more complicated version of this, where 2♦-2♥-2NT is also a puppet, so that we can fit in a few more hands.)

[rbouskila]

Fluffy, on Sep 16 2010, 06:26 AM, said:

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

I'd rebid 2♣, not 1NT, with 2254.

Most people rebid 1NT, but they are wrong, what you should do is use your judgement and see that

xx
Ax
KQ10xx
KJ10x

is a 2 suiter (2♣)

while

Qx
K10
Axxxx
Kxxx

is a balanced hand (1NT)

That's very cute, but frankly if you evaluated it as a balanced hand before it should still be a balanced hand to you.

In the realm of your normal 2254, I'm rebidding 2!C. If I have a weirdo with strong doubletons and weak suits such that I'd pretend it's balanced, I'm still pretending it's balanced and rebidding 2NT. I strongly believe that rebidding anything but 2NT preempts partner out of his planned subsequent rebid at the 3-level. When partner has a hand with hearts and a minor, 3♣ preempts him out of bidding clubs and 3♦ prevents him from bidding either minor.

@OleBerg, if you wantonly rebid 3♦ in this sequence, I hope for your sake your partner rarely has club slam tries That said I'm interested to hear what you think "a good reason" might be.

I would never rebid 1NT with any six diamonds, no matter how bad they were.

Note that this auction started 1♦ not 1♣, so a 3145 is impossible. In that context I'd countenance a 3♣ rebid.

Edit: which bid I think should specifically show _exactly_ 3145.

[rbouskila]

gnasher, on Sep 16 2010, 09:39 AM, said:

(2) Yes, if you might have rebid 1NT with 2254 or with six diamonds; otherwise no.
(3) Five hearts and four or more diamonds; either doubt about which game to play in, or a slam try.
(4) ♥Hx, suggesting a 5-2 fit
(5) Probably 3541, either investigating the best game or making a slam try; might also be a cue-bid in a s542.

If, like me, you dislike this ambiguity about responder's objectives, you can avoid it with a little more sophistication. Play that 2♦ forces 2♥, then have responder show his hand, like this:

2♦-2♥-2♠ forces 2NT, then
- New suit = natural, only game interest
- 3♥ = non-solid 6-card suit, choice of games
- 3NT = solid 6-card suit, choice of games

2♦-2♥-2NT = balanced slam try

2♦-2♥-3any = natural, slam try

2♦-2♥-3NT = 5 hearts, choice of games

(I actually play a more complicated version of this, where 2♦-2♥-2NT is also a puppet, so that we can fit in a few more hands.)

Gnasher, I totally agree with your assessment of the auction. Thanks.

FWIW, what happened was partner thought 2NT promised stoppers in the unbid suits, and therefore 3♦ was unambiguously a slam try, and I was not only showing ♥Hx with 3♥, but implicitly cooperating with his slam try with a maximum hand.

I had something like xxx, KQ, AQ108x, xxx (yeah it's a fairly shitty opener, but add ♦J and the point stands), and to me 3♦ was natural, either a slam try or uncertainty about which game. I showed my strong heart doubleton (maybe he has a good five-card suit and a distributional hand and 4♥ is better than 3NT), and over 3♠ I was never bidding 3NT without a club stopper. We ended up in 6♦-2.

[bucky]

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

In the realm of your normal 2254, I'm rebidding 2!C. If I have a weirdo with strong doubletons and weak suits such that I'd pretend it's balanced, I'm still pretending it's balanced and rebidding 2NT. I strongly believe that rebidding anything but 2NT preempts partner out of his planned subsequent rebid at the 3-level. When partner has a hand with hearts and a minor, 3♣ preempts him out of bidding clubs and 3♦ prevents him from bidding either minor.

@OleBerg, if you wantonly rebid 3♦ in this sequence, I hope for your sake your partner rarely has club slam tries That said I'm interested to hear what you think "a good reason" might be.

I would never rebid 1NT with any six diamonds, no matter how bad they were.

Note that this auction started 1♦ not 1♣, so a 3145 is impossible. In that context I'd countenance a 3♣ rebid.

Edit: which bid I think should specifically show _exactly_ 3145.

I think this also depends on your general structure after 1m-1M-1NT. For example, what would 3♣ or 3♦ show? If these bids are natural and game forcing, then you don't have to worry about opener's 3♣/3♦ bids preempting responder.

[gnasher]

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 07:55 PM, said:

FWIW, what happened was partner thought 2NT promised stoppers in the unbid suits, and therefore 3♦ was unambiguously a slam try, and I was not only showing ♥Hx with 3♥, but implicitly cooperating with his slam try with a maximum hand.

I had something like xxx, KQ, AQ108x, xxx

That's a pretty good hand opposite a slam try with hearts and diamonds. Axx AJxxx Kxxx A makes a grand slam.

Quote

We ended up in 6♦-2.

What did partner have?

[gwnn]

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 06:55 PM, said:

Gnasher, I totally agree with your assessment of the auction. Thanks.

FWIW, what happened was partner thought 2NT promised stoppers in the unbid suits, and therefore 3♦ was unambiguously a slam try, and I was not only showing ♥Hx with 3♥, but implicitly cooperating with his slam try with a maximum hand.

I had something like xxx, KQ, AQ108x, xxx (yeah it's a fairly shitty opener, but add ♦J and the point stands), and to me 3♦ was natural, either a slam try or uncertainty about which game. I showed my strong heart doubleton (maybe he has a good five-card suit and a distributional hand and 4♥ is better than 3NT), and over 3♠ I was never bidding 3NT without a club stopper. We ended up in 6♦-2.

This thread now sounds like a quiz or a test, gnasher got his rightful reward for agreeing with you and Fluffy and OleBerg who disagreed with you (not by much, actually), got the treatment. I am exaggerating here but only to make myself understood a little better.

[gnasher]

gwnn, on Sep 17 2010, 11:57 AM, said:

This thread now sounds like a quiz or a test, gnasher got his rightful reward for agreeing with you

I don't think much of the prizes.

[kfay]

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 01:46 PM, said:

Fluffy, on Sep 16 2010, 06:26 AM, said:

rbouskila, on Sep 16 2010, 08:43 AM, said:

I'd rebid 2♣, not 1NT, with 2254.

Most people rebid 1NT, but they are wrong, what you should do is use your judgement and see that

xx
Ax
KQ10xx
KJ10x

is a 2 suiter (2♣)

while

Qx
K10
Axxxx
Kxxx

is a balanced hand (1NT)

That's very cute, but frankly if you evaluated it as a balanced hand before it should still be a balanced hand to you.

In the realm of your normal 2254, I'm rebidding 2!C. If I have a weirdo with strong doubletons and weak suits such that I'd pretend it's balanced, I'm still pretending it's balanced and rebidding 2NT. I strongly believe that rebidding anything but 2NT preempts partner out of his planned subsequent rebid at the 3-level. When partner has a hand with hearts and a minor, 3♣ preempts him out of bidding clubs and 3♦ prevents him from bidding either minor.

@OleBerg, if you wantonly rebid 3♦ in this sequence, I hope for your sake your partner rarely has club slam tries That said I'm interested to hear what you think "a good reason" might be.

I would never rebid 1NT with any six diamonds, no matter how bad they were.

Note that this auction started 1♦ not 1♣, so a 3145 is impossible. In that context I'd countenance a 3♣ rebid.

Edit: which bid I think should specifically show _exactly_ 3145.

Very much disagree

We're in a game forcing auction and 3♣ doesn't eat up much room. Why essentially say twice that my hand is something that it is not? I can get away with saying it once, but doing so twice is bad bidding, in my opinion.

Also if partner holds a club slamtry the auction doesn't usually go this way but 1♦-2♣. If he holds a genuine club slamtry still then it probably goes 1♦-1♥; 1N-[3cl], or the opposite of whichever bid shows the desire to get out in 3♣.

On the whole, though, I agree with gnasher that 3♥ would be Hx and 3♠ is somewhat ambiguous but is probably saying 'I'm worried about clubs!'


In the full 2-way CB structure if partner wanted to make a slamtry in diamonds the auction should have gone: 1♦-1♥; 1N-3♦. That's an unambiguous slamtry. These sequences are used just to find the right game. The same principle applies when you have a single-suited hand.

1♦-1♥; 1N-3♥ says 'we're playing in ♥'
1♦-1♥; 1N-2♦; 2N-3♥ says 'I think we should play in hearts but I'm not totally certain.'

[hanp]

I prefer to play 1D - 1H - 1NT - 3D as a 5-5 invite. With a slam try and 5+ diamonds I either start with 2NT (if I have shortness) or 2D.

I don't know what "full 2-way cb" means but I guess I disagree.

[kfay]

hanp, on Sep 17 2010, 09:45 AM, said:

I prefer to play 1D - 1H - 1NT - 3D as a 5-5 invite. With a slam try and 5+ diamonds I either start with 2NT (if I have shortness) or 2D.

I don't know what "full 2-way cb" means but I guess I disagree.

Don't really think you're arguing against me otherwise you'd be saying that 1♦-1♥; 1N-2♦; 2N-3♦ is unambiguously a slamtry and I'm pretty sure you don't play that way but correct me if I'm wrong, and then I'll correct you back because you'd be wrong.

I don't have a problem with playing this as invitational. The other parts of the system still hold for me. But if I do play that way then I'm going to have to bid above 3NT to show a diamond slamtry.

[gnasher]

hanp, on Sep 17 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

I prefer to play 1D - 1H - 1NT - 3D as a 5-5 invite.

I prefer to play it as a 4-4 or 4-5 invitation, so that we don't have to play in a silly 2NT when opener is minimum.

With a 5-5 or 5-4 invitation I'd bid 1♦-1♥;1NT-2♣;2♦-3♦. What do you use that sequence for?

[gnasher]

kfay, on Sep 17 2010, 03:25 PM, said:

We're in a game forcing auction and 3♣ doesn't eat up much room. Why essentially say twice that my hand is something that it is not? I can get away with saying it once, but doing so twice is bad bidding, in my opinion.

Ideally we'd like to tell partner about our shape if partner wants to know about it, but not if he doesn't. Much of the time partner is interested only in 3-card heart support; if you bid 3♣ opposite such a hand you have gained nothing and may have helped the opponents.

Quote

Also if partner holds a club slamtry the auction doesn't usually go this way but 1♦-2♣.

It goes 1♦-1♥ whenever he is 5-4, 5-5 or (in most partnerships) 4-4. It goes 1♦-2♣ only when he is 4-5.

[hanp]

gnasher, on Sep 17 2010, 10:27 AM, said:

hanp, on Sep 17 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

I prefer to play 1D - 1H - 1NT - 3D as a 5-5 invite.

I prefer to play it as a 4-4 or 4-5 invitation, so that we don't have to play in a silly 2NT when opener is minimum.

With a 5-5 or 5-4 invitation I'd bid 1♦-1♥;1NT-2♣;2♦-3♦. What do you use that sequence for?

4-5 (or 4-4) invitational.

[gnasher]

Ah, you play Reverse Non-Full 2-Way Checkback.

[Fluffy]

probably meaningless to you but I play

1♦-1♥
1NT-2NT

as balanced invite without 4 diamonds.

and

1♦-1♥
1NT-2♣
2♦-2NT

as balanced invite wtih 4 diamonds.

With 5M-4m I just invite in my 5cM and play 2M in a 5-2 fit even with 4-4 fit avaible sometimes.