[Elianna]

TylerE, on Aug 2 2010, 08:07 PM, said:

So if you had held J KQJxxxx Jxx Jx partner would have been perfectly happy?

I asked her that. She said yes, because then I would have had my bid.

I gave up after that.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I asked her that. She said yes, because then I would have had my bid.

I gave up after that.

I am not approving yelling or even blaming during play but your question doesn't make sense here.
Obviously she was furious because in her mind you broke partnership discipline and her normal action wasn't successful because of it.
It's of course possible that there are hands when you could open 2♥ and they would still make but that wasn't likely assuming you had your bid (in her mind).

In my mind asking this question is contributing to bad atmosphere and argument. While you didn't yell or anything you displayed aggressive behavior towards her in my opinion.

Also note that her answer is perfectly logical.
You would get the very same answer in normal discussion after the hand (assuming partner don't yell but just say he/she is unhappy about your action).

[the hog]

TylerE, on Aug 3 2010, 11:07 AM, said:

So if you had held J KQJxxxx Jxx Jx partner would have been perfectly happy?

With this hand 3C would probably go off, maybe 2 off on S ruffs. Anyway, I would also bid 2H.

[eyhung]

Dirk Kuijt, on Aug 2 2010, 09:03 PM, said:

2 hearts would be wonderful, or at least better than 3 hearts, on this hand if the only point of evaluation is play in hearts.  However, that's not what 2 hearts means, at least to me.  A 2 heart bid, to me, shows some high card values; something that is valuable in 3NT or on defense.

While you are certainly correct that this is not a 2♥ bid in your style, I doubt the OP is interested in your specific style, but more the style of a standard partner. As you can see, many people seem to think that a standard 2♥ does not promise significant defensive strength vs. 3NT. I think making a statement on the offensive potential of the hand in hearts is far more important, unless you frequently double the opponents after partner's weak twos.

[Free]

2.5♥

I voted 2 because 3 may be a disaster.

[whereagles]

Elianna, on Aug 3 2010, 02:50 AM, said:

This hand is here because my partner screamed and yelled at me for opening 2♥. She (so NOT Adam, as he is very eager for me to point out) was very displeased when the opponent overcalled 3C over this, and she doubled with Axxx x AKxx Axxx and 3C made.

She made statements along the lines of it being a failure to play bridge if I open this hand 2♥ (instead of the pass that she wanted) and that she's never going to bid over my preempts again.

One has to be able to put up with occasional failures and understand them in light of the random nature of the game. Normal and reasonable bids, like 2♥ and dbl, sometimes don't work out as they should.

I would probably open 3♥ though. The hand has zero defense and loads of offense. The perfect pattern for a high preempt.

[y66]

JLOGIC, on Aug 2 2010, 09:26 PM, said:

Seems like an obv 2H. I don't understand the objection to the 7th heart, our hand is not good enough to open 3H and surely our partner won't be disappointed with our 7th trump if we open 2. Is it just some arbitrary rule? If partner ever goes to 3N we can go to 4H.

Yes, arbitrary rule and a strong natural inclination to bid 3 with that hand, regardless of vulnerability. Will rethink that based on comments in this thread.

[JLOGIC]

I understand the feeling that hands evaluate differently for non heart contracts, so that hands worth a 2H bid with 7 hearts will have worse hands for defense and 3N than hands with 6 hearts.

However, I don't feel that a 2H bid promises any defensive strength and I feel that if partner is going to bid 3N we are going to bid 4H with 7 broken hearts anyways, and that should be fine.

To me this is not the equivalent of opening a 1 bid because we have extra shape even though we have no defense and terrible hands for contracts that arent in our suit. A preempt is just saying we have a good suit and a hand worth x amount for offense in our suit. To me it is a flaw in a preempt if it has too much side defense.

Yes this does widen your range for preempting a bid, but the point is to make them guess while maintaining some constructive ability/safety, so that is a necessity.

Even if you think the 7th heart is an evil, I just don't like any alternative to it at all. Passing with a pretty good 7 card suit when you can both destruct their auction as well as get the nature of your hand across reasonably well in one bid (not that much defense, long/good hearts) is not palatable at all to me. Hands like this are the reason that preempts exist to me.

Also I WOULD double with your partners hand all vul at MP, but I would do so knowing it's possible they are cold. If we catch the HA with partner they are obv down, and we have chances if we catch a doubleton diamond or anything else on the side like a queen, or even if we don't and they are kind of mirrored and have to lose a slow heart. I would never blame the preemptor for preempting without the ace or anything else, and of course it is a disaster when you hit something like xx KQJTxx Jxxx x, but that's matchpoints!

[gnasher]

eyhung, on Aug 3 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

While you are certainly correct that this is not a 2♥ bid in your style, I doubt the OP is interested in your specific style, but more the style of a standard partner.

What part of "What's your call?" implies that?

[CSGibson]

Elianna, on Aug 2 2010, 07:50 PM, said:

This hand is here because my partner screamed and yelled at me for opening 2♥. She (so NOT Adam, as he is very eager for me to point out) was very displeased when the opponent overcalled 3C over this, and she doubled with Axxx x AKxx Axxx and 3C made.

She made statements along the lines of it being a failure to play bridge if I open this hand 2♥ (instead of the pass that she wanted) and that she's never going to bid over my preempts again.

I'm sorry that you had that frustrating experience. Personally, if I am in a new partnership with someone I think is tightly wound, I try and make a statement like "I want you to know, going into the evening, that there will be some bids I make that you will not agree with, & vice versa". Don't know if it helps us play well, but it does set expectations.

[jdonn]

Agree that I would have duplicated both of your actions, and I wouldn't have been mad at my partner at all for taking either action.

[aguahombre]

JLOGIC, on Aug 3 2010, 07:21 AM, said:

and of course it is a disaster when you hit something like xx KQJTxx Jxxx x, but that's matchpoints!

The rest of Justin's post is merely excellent. But this part nails it.

A perfectly normal 2H opening, which cannot be criticized in any way, but still becomes hopeless defending 3C. Conclusion: sh-- happens, and as Joey would say, "NEXT".

[Elianna]

CSGibson, on Aug 3 2010, 06:55 AM, said:

Elianna, on Aug 2 2010, 07:50 PM, said:

This hand is here because my partner screamed and yelled at me for opening 2♥.  She (so NOT Adam, as he is very eager for me to point out) was very displeased when the opponent overcalled 3C over this, and she doubled with Axxx  x  AKxx Axxx and 3C made.

She made statements along the lines of it being a failure to play bridge if I open this hand 2♥ (instead of the pass that she wanted) and that she's never going to bid over my preempts again.

I'm sorry that you had that frustrating experience. Personally, if I am in a new partnership with someone I think is tightly wound, I try and make a statement like "I want you to know, going into the evening, that there will be some bids I make that you will not agree with, & vice versa". Don't know if it helps us play well, but it does set expectations.

This is not a new partnership.

We usually have at least once hand that we're unhappy with each other.

Anyway, she yells a lot less than a different regular partner, who I stopped playing with for other reasons. Who also had strange ideas about preempts.

Anyway, I don't mind the yelling, I can take it. I just wanted to know if I was the crazy one.

[junyi_zhu]

Elianna, on Aug 3 2010, 02:50 AM, said:

This hand is here because my partner screamed and yelled at me for opening 2♥. She (so NOT Adam, as he is very eager for me to point out) was very displeased when the opponent overcalled 3C over this, and she doubled with Axxx x AKxx Axxx and 3C made.

She made statements along the lines of it being a failure to play bridge if I open this hand 2♥ (instead of the pass that she wanted) and that she's never going to bid over my preempts again.

if she can't beat 3C, it's unlucky IMO.

[eyhung]

gnasher, on Aug 3 2010, 07:54 AM, said:

eyhung, on Aug 3 2010, 10:09 AM, said:

While you are certainly correct that this is not a 2♥ bid in your style, I doubt the OP is interested in your specific style, but more the style of a standard partner.

What part of "What's your call?" implies that?

Ah, the pedant again. It's true that the literal interpretation of "What's your call?" = "do me the favor of telling me your specific style"? But I don't see the need for the diplomatic pretense that everyone's style is equally valid. If I were to respond saying I would open 1♥ because I play that opening 1-bids don't promise any defense or I would open 4♥ because partnership style says it's ok to overbid by 5 playing tricks vulnerable, I doubt the OP would be terribly interested.

[nigel_k]

There are lots of people out there who think a weak two bid requires high cards. Allowing is to be just a weaker version of a three bid, as Justin described, is better in my opinion. But nobody is crazy here - you just need an agreement.

[gnasher]

eyhung, on Aug 3 2010, 07:16 PM, said:

Ah, the pedant again.  It's true that the literal interpretation of "What's your call?" = "do me the favor of telling me your specific style"?  But I don't see the need for the diplomatic pretense that everyone's style is equally valid.  If I were to respond saying I would open 1♥ because I play that opening 1-bids don't promise any defense or I would open 4♥ because partnership style says it's ok to overbid by 5 playing tricks vulnerable, I doubt the OP would be terribly interested.

I don't particularly mind being accused of pedantry, but I don't think I have been guilty of that here.

Adam is both intelligent and literate; I'm sure that if he'd wanted to ask "What do you think is the standard call amongst thirty-something males in California?" he would have done so. Since he in fact asked "What's your call?", under the heading "Preempt Style", it seems reasonable to assume that he wanted to know what everybody thinks the hand is worth, and how their style of preempts bears upon this evaluation.

Personally I find it interesting to see how styles vary around the world. I'd like to continue to indulge this interest, so I'd prefer it if people didn't get snubbed for describing a style that doesn't fit into some individual's view of what is standard.

In any case, requiring some defensive strength for a weak two is hardly avant garde.

[babalu1997]

y66, on Aug 2 2010, 07:05 PM, said:

3H.

I have seen good players open 2M with 7 cards but I have never tried that. For me, 2H denies 7 hearts.

and reporting here from palooka land i have never seen folks who open 2h with 7 cards get a good result.

the ones who bid 3h later in the auction still get beaten.

[mycroft]

I would "upgrade" that hand at EHAA or playing with the partner we agreed to open EHAA-style 3-bids in the majors to 7 losers and bid 3H.
I would treat it as a bad 7-card suit with another partner, and open 2H (outside the ACBL where I'm allowed to treat this as a 6-count).
I would pass without thinking with another partner, who won't accept this undisciplined a 2H call.

On this hand, it's unfortunate that your hand doesn't promote a trick and 3Cx rolled. "If they never make a doubled contract against you, you're not doubling enough." Second the "partners that yell at me at the table can find another partner." My current partner never yells, he just gets So Disappointed...

[eyhung]

gnasher, on Aug 3 2010, 02:28 PM, said:

Personally I find it interesting to see how styles vary around the world. I'd like to continue to indulge this interest, so I'd prefer it if people didn't get snubbed for describing a style that doesn't fit into some individual's view of what is standard.

As elianna stated in a later post which was available at the time I replied to Dirk, the purpose of the post was not to determine what "your call is", but whether bidding 2♥ was "crazy" (i.e., not in accordance with conventional wisdom), because her partner was unhappy with the opening. That sounds like an attempt to determine what is standard and what isn't. Dirk then posted his approach. I then replied to dirk in my experience, requiring defensive strength for a weak two is non-standard (and in my opinion, sub-optimal), so his approach was unlikely to be of interest to the OP. We then get derailed into yet another nitpicky discussion.

Note I'm not opposed to weak twos which DO require significant defensive strength -- I myself play them with one regular partner. But to sit down opposite a generic 2/1 (as specified in the OP) partner and to expect enough defensive strength to make non-solo penalty doubles based on that assumption seems crazier to me than opening 2♥ with this hand.