[Mirjam_3]

->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Director Mirjam_3 is now at the table as requested by complainer
P of complainer: sry is not enough opp!
Mirjam_3: hi can i help?
complainer: hi mirjam 3
complainer: false cl claimed all tricks when the ace of the trump was out !!
p of false claimer: pd - you forgot the Ace of trumps
P of complainer: well they claimed when ace was out!!!!!!!!!!!
->false claimer: really?
complainer: and they said u would adjust anyway !!!
Mirjam_3: ???
complainer: not that they were mistaken !!
Mirjam_3: false claimer?
P of complainer: are they familiar with these false claims?
Mirjam_3: what do u mean?
p of false claimer: we all forget cards sometimes
Mirjam_3: no they r no regular players here so no notes on them and not for that reason
P of complainer: dont think so!:!!
Mirjam_3: did u forget false claimer?
false claimer: lets play
P of complainer: false claimer?
complainer: how could someone forget the ace of the trump !!!
->complainer: i make a note now
complainer: ty
P of complainer: false claimer, answer
complainer: ty
p of false claimer: he did forget - so what. have a smile and lets play
complainer: npp mirjam made a note
P of complainer: iether they tried really or he is ill...
complainer: yes yes u will see the smile when the board comes out
Mirjam_3: false claimer, watch cl carefully in future i made note on you now

I left table

complainer: false claimer just sent me a private message accepting that he has not forgotten it !!!
->complainer: wow do u want me to punish him?

complainer: yes by debiting with imps what is the note good for ??

complainer: congratulations , they cheat , they admit it and they get imps ... very good system very much fair ..

->complainer: sry busy i respond later ok?

It was a very busy tournament with lots of subs, adjustments, difficulties andsoon so i really didnt have time. I also sufferred a lot under the new translations.. i have often no idea whether the subbing succeeded or not since i get messages in all kind of languages i do not speak.
I even got stuck myself and had to restart pc..

Mirjam_3->Tournament: back now and … i added some time since we needed many subs and i think it is not fair for the score to have 10 tables ...
Mirjam_3->Tournament: w av
Mirjam_3->Tournament: if you have questions plse ask one problem still unsolved and i will return to that one after tourney and that is about ...
Mirjam_3->Tournament: the false claim
Mirjam_3->Tournament: i think i need second opinion on that one so it might take some time but i will return to you:)

complainer: I am here waiting ... but if u will come back to me on that after the current scores are declared , no need to :-)

xxx: ty for the tourney and if you need a second opnion be free to request it )

yyy: false claim? that sounds like a BBO forum topic

->xxx: tx i will come to u later
->yyy: yes maybe

yyy (Lobby): What happened with the false claim, someone claimed too many tricks or claimed without an obvious line of play?
->yyy: i will get it ok and send it to u after t ok? complicated now
yyy (Lobby): okay

I really have to ask uday to get the sub messages b in english…
f.e. what does this mean - is the player subbed or not?
->Mirjam_3: Automated message: … wymianê. … zosta³ zastêpiony przez urekt1

Anyway: My idea of ruling is that i warn player if false claim is made and i make note on that player so i know next time he did this before.
Further i thought the player who complained asked for punishment since the false claimer was gloating but a later remark made me thinking who needs a punishment here? Of course the false claimers had to answer properly in stead of saying: let us play, but the complainer went too far i think.

So far i think i sd tell the complainer his behavior was bad and point out that he could have used the gloating. I also think other remarks of him were not ok but that might also be a language bug. That is why i would appreciate second opinion before going back to him.
Further i think i have to ask the false claimer whether it is true he said to the complainer that he was not forgotten the ace of trumps and ask the complainer to send me chat for proof and go to abuse with those results if any there.

Tx in advance:)

[McBruce]

To make a long story short (and add a long one of my own):

The player claimed all the rest missing the ace of trumps and defended this by saying his opponents do this all the time. I imagine Mirjam_3 adjusted to the correct number of tricks without trouble; the question is what to do about the player who made the deliberate overclaim.

Sadly, the answer is that nothing we can currently do will help. You can do nothing and the player will continue to overclaim. Or you can ban him from your tournaments and the player will continue to overclaim in someone else's tournaments. Or you can report him and he will claim he made a mistake and apologize and continue overclaiming.

People do these things because they improve their score by doing so. Until we Directors can start handing out penalties to convince players that some tactics are going to cost them IMPs, they will continue to do so. In my tournaments I have a rating system and I adjust people's scores if they are slow or if they misbehave. I got a complaint about a player's unkind comments a few days ago and went to the table unannounced. I talked to the victim (who was the dummy) in private as the jerk completed the hand and began discussing his atrocious bidding to his RHO, claiming that he had to bid this way because of his current partner. I eventually received reports from two people that this player had at a previous table used the word 'stupid.' Eventually this happened (I've replaced the name, of course):

thejerk: what else would you bid if you had my cards rho?
rho: 1!D
thejerk: 18 points..1 D???
rho: yes...sayc
(thejerk had opened 1NT in first seat with a balanced and unflawed 18 and played it there)
thejerk: my partner had perfect hand to transdfer to minor
(his partner had 2-2-4-5 and 5 HCP)
lho: minor transfer or suppose to be six
thejerk: myP is someone who passes 4NT .. last ahnd .. lol .. he would pass 1D also
McBruce: that comment will cost you 3 IMPs thej
McBruce: there is no excuse for making such public comments
rho: 1NT 15-17 anyway
McBruce: one more like that and I will replace you
thejerk: whichcomment are you talkingabout?
rho: 18 bid 1NT will make difference, maybe win or loss, not avg
McBruce: criticizing partner's play of the hand is not allowed here
McBruce: or bidding

The most amazing thing happened: several kibitzers sent me messages of support: STRONG support.

->thejerk: I have two people telling me you used the word stupid. This is unacceptable behavior and you are lucky to be penalized ...
->thejerk: only 3 IMPs. Plus, your comments about partner passing your 1NT bid betray you as clearly a non-expert.
thejerk: he does not know my hand .. lol .. so what you are saying holds no water .. lol .. he has to listen to my bid and make ...
thejerk: th eproper bid .. lol
(Note the use of 'lol' as though he is always a genial, laughing sort. I bet he used lol in the message where he called partner stupid.)
thejerk: I bid 1NT .. he has to go by my bid ...
->thejerk: with a five count and 2-2-4-5 pass is correct over 1NT.
thejerk: lol .. you notice we made 3NT??
->thejerk: that's because you made the wrong bid to start with
thejerk: oh ..so what would you bid ..
->thejerk: 1D like any sayc player
thejerk: my P does not play sayc ..or he would not pass 4NT .. was my view

The jerk kept arguing with me long after the tourney was over, despite the fact that (and this must have been a real shock to him) he had not finished in the top 100 with his inexhausitble supply of brilliancies, so the 3 IMP penalty was meaningless. But it must have really angered him, because he would not stop yapping!

Finally I agreed to look at the board on which his partner had passed Blackwood. The jerk had a 16 count, 2-2-4-5 with AK Ax and five more points in the minors. No standard 1NT for our hero, he opened 1C. Partner bid 1S and he rebid 3NT, showing a 19 count at least. Partner held 6-5-1-1 and tried 4H. Back came 4NT. Does this seem like Blackwood to you? It seems quite possible to me that it is a signoff. This was all just too much.

->thejerk: which board was it?
->thejerk: never mind, I've got it. You rebid a sign-off 3NT with about 4-5 points less than you need, and partner with 6-5 in the ...
->thejerk: majors tries 4!H so now 4NT is Blackwood? Tell me another one. People who do well in this tournament use normal bids ...
->thejerk: and take their gifts when they come, instead of trying to mastermind every hand and grumbling in public chat when ...
->thejerk: partner cannot work out impossible bidding.
thejerk (Lobby): Ihave no idea what you are trying to say .. does not make sense to me .. the fact is I made 6 NT on that contract .. lol
thejerk (Lobby): and I doing well in this tournament is not my aim in life ..

And the punch line:

thejerk (Lobby): and stupid is a word used in the best of circles in the real world ..it is no tan iinsult because it refered to the bid ...
thejerk (Lobby): and not to the person.. and even if it did refer to a person it is not a curse .. tell me if you know anyone in real ...
thejerk (Lobby): life who considers stupid as a word tht should not be used in public in decent conversation

I had no answer for this. It all seemed just too stupid for words.

[Mirjam_3]

there 3 problems i think 1. false claim, secondly the false claimer didnot make any excuse, 3rd he was accused by the complainer that he TOLD privatedly he knew he had the ace of trumps and the accusation of the complainer that the false claimer was cheating;) i add it to this post.. it might help:)

[Trpltrbl]

I think this is a good example why to always check a claim.
And as for the abuser(s) they need to be penalized. I think suspension would be a good start.

Mike

[paulhar]

I know for a fact that if either my partner or I claimed falsely and gained an undeserved trick, I would call the TD and ask that my score be adjusted downward. In fact, yesterday my partner got away with a false claim in the Main Bridge Club for an overtrick and I let my opponents know that the next hand I played I was going to claim one less overtrick than I deserved. (Unfortuately, I never got any overtricks after that.)

I should think that anybody should do the same. What joy is there in winning by claiming all without the ace of trump?

Besides, does anybody know who won tournament #801 last Friday (if there was one?) That's right, nobody but the winner, and maybe not even him. So not only is there no joy in winning this way, there is no sense in it as nobody will remember that you won it anyway.

So c'mon guys - don't upset people with false claims - just call the TD and give the trick back. And if your opponent gets away with one and doesn't give it back, then don't let it frost you. Yeah, I know - you were going to win the tournament without it. You know that - hey, you won! Like I said, nobody will know who won it tomorrow, so as far as you're concerned, you won.

I've lost at least two tournament first places because I had a top and the opponent played slowly and I got an average minus and the TD wouldn't adjust (too many other problems.) Do I care? No - that's part of the game. You play long enough, it's going to happen to you too. These TD's do a whale of a job but they can't do everything. Let's face it - we play for entertainment and I got just as much entertainment with my 27th place finish or so as I would have if I had won.

Don't let the jerks get you. Just be happy that your not his (her) spouse.

[scoob]

well said

[inquiry]

I was playing yesterday with tendenz. The declearer with the remaining tricks claimed, partner and I too quickly agreed. Only then, did I see the declearer gave us one more trick in the claim than we could win. I called the director myself, to get the score correct.. here is the log...

Chat log from event...
->inquiry: Automated message: Director guide1 is now at the table as requested by inquiry
inquiry: opponent claimed donw one too many last board
inquiry: they should only be down two
tendenz: thanks td
surgeon: thx TD
surgeon: thx ben

Bridge really should be a civil game, and for once, I agree 100% with paulhar

Ben

[luis]

In my view if an opponent missclaims it is a mistake and mistakes happen in online and face to face bridge and are part of the game.
It is against the rules to give tricks to the opps and it's against the law to rule as a player, only the td can rule. Giving away tricks is not only against the rules but is also against the spirit of the game since you will be distortioning the field.
In f2f bridge when declarer claims "n" tricks and the opponents accept even if there's no way for him to make less than "n+1" he is awarded only "n" tricks. It's the rule.

I think the first thing that we have to do as good sportsmen is to follow the rules and mentor the others to do the same.

[inquiry]

luis, on Jul 8 2004, 04:03 PM, said:

In my view if an opponent missclaims it is a mistake and mistakes happen in online and face to face bridge and are part of the game.
It is against the rules to give tricks to the opps and it's against the law to rule as a player, only the td can rule. Giving away tricks is not only against the rules but is also against the spirit of the game since you will be distortioning the field.
In f2f bridge when declarer claims "n" tricks and the opponents accept even if there's no way for him to make less than "n+1" he is awarded only "n" tricks. It's the rule.

I think the first thing that we have to do as good sportsmen is to follow the rules and mentor the others to do the same.

Luis, for a change you are wrong.

Law 71-C states that one cannot concede a trick that one cannot lose. If the opponents concede a trick that you think you can’t win, it is your responsibility to say so and make sure that the trick belongs to you. Don't accept tricks you can't possibly win.

[DrTodd13]

I agree with Ben with the proviso that "you can't possiby win" means literally there is no line of play in which you can lose this trick. If there is any line, even a completely ridiculous line, that results in declarer losing that trick then he has lost it by mis-claiming.

[Trpltrbl]

And trump Ace is kinda hard to lose in any kinda line.
Believe me I have tried.

Mike

[Frosty]

[FONT=Arial]#smooch Mirjam -

Am glad you posted this one! I'm totally convinced there was a full moon!

Seriously, though - I would have scored the Board with the results that would naturally have occurred so as not to impact the rest of the tournament, and then I would take steps to blocked both the false claimer and the complainer from entering my future tournaments. And this is why .....

The false claimer appears to have acted on purpose, and you have reason to suspect that this is a technique used intentially by the false claimer to plump up his/her score. Doing it on purpose it is cheating, and blocking cheater's from entering your tournament is the only thing that you can do to restrict his/her opportunity to cheat. I probably wouldn't consider allowing this player into my tournaments again.

The complainer had an option that was better than harping on the issue - deny the claim, ask the opps to play on, and call the TD in only if the opps keep posting the claim or otherwise delaying. I think in this case - given the way the complainer kept yapping - I would tell the complainer that I would be happy to discuss it later but won't take any more time during the tournament. I would also let him/her know that constantly chatting about it during the tournament is disruptive. At any rate - blocking him/her from entering your tournaments temporarily and telling him/her that you are doing it because of disruptive behavior is a good option. I would lift this block if and when the player shows an understanding of how he/she contributed to the problem, and promises not to repeat it.

In short, its one thing to be responsive and to be a good listener, but you have to draw the line somewhere in order to set the right tone for the rest of your tournaments.

As for the "surprise" subbing messages - I'm with you LOL. I can't figure out whether the sub request has been successful or not. I think the language must relate in someway to the native tongue of the person who did or didn't accept the subbing invitations. First time it happened to me I had a moment of panic wondering if all messages from then on would be in a language I didn't understand LOL. I was soooooo glad to see the chat revert to English.

Frosty

[Gweny]

To both Mirjam and McBruce.

Rude people stink. Lessons, overanal-ysis (yes hyphen is intentional tee hee) gloating, all harmarks of poor sportsmanship.

But I ask you... in our hurry rush to serve our players do you take time to celebrate our decent sportmans?

I do when someone call me. In fact I announce it to entire tournament

!H!H Good Sportmanship Award for today goes to XXX and his/her partner XXY.

Mcbruce you show far more tolerance than I do for yapping after adjustment. As one poster points out it IS "just" a game and will most of us will not remember 3-4 days from now. So why do some insist on arguing for 20-30 min afterwards.

I wish i know.

Your yellows are here to serve/help you. and you also are servants/volunteers of bbo community. Please feel free to call me if someone is harassing you about some ruling. Often little bit of vacation time from either bbo tournaments or bbo do wonders to improve attitudes.

[beky]

Hi to everybody, the I will try to say my opinion even if as all they know my English it is really very bad:

The Italian rule is very precise on this case: when a player claim some or all the tricks the game finishes [...] cannot be claimed tricks that a player would not have lost with a game "normal".

The important thing to be understood is if these wrong claims are due to players that want to deceive or simply distracted. In the first case i agree to adj and to give a punishment to the unethical player, in the second case I would be more tolerant, but in both cases I would restore the reality of the hand.

The players that call for making to adj a score to them disfavor, in effects, they are mine preferred.

IMHO

Beky