[Mirjam_3]

Scoring: MP

---

Bidding: N pass E pass S 1d W pass N 1h E pass S 2s W pass N 4s E pass S 4NT W pass N 5d E pass S 6s all pass

East, West and me agreed i wd ask the good players on forum to look at my ruling in next case plse:

Did i ok?

->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Director Mirjam_3 is now at the table as requested by EASTPLAYER
Mirjam_3: hi
Mirjam_3: plse bid
Westplayer: it does because we get the first trick and still the jack
EASTPLAYER: hi TD, can you take a look at previose biding pls
Mirjam_3: plse bid NOW
Mirjam_3: sure but NEVER stop bid and play
EASTPLAYER: opp respond 1!H with 3 card suit.....
->Northplayer: why 1h?
->Southplayer: what was 1h for you?
Westplayer: i would have led hearts if N had no open bid it
EASTPLAYER: i think A= is good for non alerted bid
Northplayer: if p can bid 1S i am comfortable . if he bids 2H with 4 cds i pass
Southplayer: normally 4,but with 3 cards nothing wrong
Westplayer: i thought about leading hearts but saw that there sec bid was heart
Northplayer: always makes
Mirjam_3: N says if p bid 1s i am ok and if he bids 2h i can pass and i think he is right
Mirjam_3: Southplayer read it as 4h so it is ok
Northplayer: tx
Northplayer: 5S+5D+2C=12 always
->Northplayer: ty
Mirjam_3->Tournament: 2 minutes warning:)
Mirjam_3: come on
Mirjam_3: fast now plse u lost too much time E
Westplayer: plus his 5d bid says he has the ace of hearts
EASTPLAYER: what will do now TD ?
Mirjam_3: E again
Westplayer: laying
Mirjam_3: i do not accept yr slow play

EASTPLAYER: i want ave please !
->EASTPLAYER: sry?
Southplayer: Ty :-))
->Southplayer:
EASTPLAYER: board 1 A= pls
->EASTPLAYER: i told you he can bid 1h as long as his p thinks he has 4h
->EASTPLAYER: so stop it now, i decided
EASTPLAYER: he has 3 h
->EASTPLAYER: so what?
EASTPLAYER: sorry but i want to leave your tourney replace me pls
->EASTPLAYER: i explained it to you and i agree w him he ONLY has to alert what his p might know and his p thought he had 4h
->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Find substitute: Invitations issued
->EASTPLAYER: ok
->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Find substitute: Invitations issued
->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Find substitute: Invitations issued
EASTPLAYER: replace me pls this is not judgement here
->Mirjam_3: Automated message: Substitution complete. Eastplayer has been replaced with ...
Westplayer: none of there bids were alerted and there were atleast three artificial bids on that hand
->Westplayer: this is no
EASTPLAYER (Lobby): sorry to say but you have to learn more and then to make tourneys !!!
Westplayer: do what you want but they were cheating not me...and if you can live with that its bbo problem not mine...
->EASTPLAYER: i do not agree w you you have to learn what needs an alert and not
->Westplayer: i do not think they were but believes are free, i think the 1h bid can be done as he explained so i wont adjust for it
->Westplayer: as his p reads 4h it is ok w me
Westplayer: i didnt figure you would but they are cheaters and any other td would agree, or the 1h and 5d was an honest mistake, and ...
Westplayer: i would have accepted if they had said it was a mistake, but they didnt they said something different...so either way ...

->Westplayer: i will put this hand on forum later and i will ask opinions about it i think i decided ok
Westplayer: fair enough..
->EASTPLAYER: i will put this hand on forum later and i will ask opinions about it i think i decided ok
EASTPLAYER: sure, that's for i expected, do it pls and let they tell )
Westplayer: it was just probably the lho just did not understand bidding, or you would have more people complaining, however i did ...
Westplayer: think that lho had ace heart because of the 1h and 5d bid..
->EASTPLAYER: ty
->Westplayer: 5d he has king of spades so i think that is no problem
->Westplayer: but we will see
Westplayer: true but that is not black wood
->Westplayer: rkc doesnt have to be alerted bids above 3n never need an alert you cd have asked
->Westplayer: and the complaint was not about the 5d but the 1h
Westplayer: its going to be interesting to see what people say because i understand the tough position you are in..
->Westplayer: they both answered me and i told you and i think the 1h bid can be made but we will see
->Westplayer: never tough i think i am right and if i am not i learn:)
Westplayer: yeah my partner complained about the one heart i was going to blow it off but because the complaint was made i was just ...
Westplayer: explaining why i would have led hearts if either the 1h or the 5d was different.
->Westplayer: but ur p asked me for an adjust and i refused and than yr p left angry tourney telling me i did my job not ok so... we ...
->Westplayer: will see
Westplayer: first time i played with him sorry.
->Westplayer: np dear and it is not about you it is about yr p telling me i did lousy job well if so i need to know and if i was ok ...
->Westplayer: than yr p might know if reading forum and no worry i never give any clue about names and u know it
Westplayer: ok sorry its was so much of a problem..what a head ache it must have been to you...i dont like to adjust when i td...and ...
Westplayer: i been wrong before and i have been right but either it is an headache..sorry
->Westplayer: i never have headaches
Westplayer: haha
->Westplayer: i think i do ok and if doubt i ask good player and in this case i go to forum:)
Westplayer: i think that is fair...and the best you can do..
->Westplayer: in this case they ALWAYS have 12 tricks you realise it doesnot matter what you lead?
EASTPLAYER: by the way i will not wonder if this pair is in 5 best in your tourney.......
Westplayer: if we lead hearts on open then the jack trick is also good that i caught i think...i did not even look at the film...
->EASTPLAYER: N is new Southplayer is regular player and this week he won Glamour once yes

Tx in advance for yr replies:)

[luis]

I think there's nothing to discuss, not liking what they bid is not a reason to call the TD.
I don't think North bid is a gross distortion of a natural 1d-1h bid and I find the rest of the bidding perfectly normal.
EW are absolutely wrong in eveything they said.

[Trpltrbl]

North can bid whatever he wants, as long as South thinks he has 4+♥ there is no problem.
East didn't like result, and hope to get adjusted score, as it is even on ♥ lead there are 12 tricks.
East was very rude and should be reported.
As we have discussed many times in other threads, you cannot alert a psyche.
Maybe E/W should read a little on bridgerules instead of trying to say incorrect stuff.


Mike

[luis]

Trpltrbl, on Jul 5 2004, 08:00 PM, said:

North can bid whatever he wants, as long as South thinks he has 4+♥ there is no problem.
East didn't like result, and hope to get adjusted score, as it is even on ♥ lead there are 12 tricks.
East was very rude and should be reported.
As we have discussed many times in other threads, you cannot alert a psyche.
Maybe E/W should read a little on bridgerules instead of trying to say incorrect stuff.


Mike

Correct but 1♥ is not a psyche, a psyche is a "gross distortion of what is expected for a bid" North is only missing one card in hearts and thus can't be accused of making a "gross distortion" of his hand.
1♥ is normal, 1♠ is probably better but there're players who prefer to bid a xxxx suit before AKJxxx as if it were the right thing so...

[Trpltrbl]

I didn't mean psyche in that way, was trying to make a point.
If you make a bid that is not completely there, like opening a 15-17 NT with 14 HCP or something similair, you don't alert.
That's the point is was trying to make

Mike

[hrothgar]

1♥ represents a perfectly reasonable bid. While 1♥ might not occur to a novice player, it is almost certainly the best bid with the hand in question.

1♥ allows you to find a 4-3 heart fit while still leaving open the possibility of finding a 4-4 Spade fit if partner has an unbalanced hand.

East's behaviour is reprehensible. Personally, I'd ban the player from future tournaments.

From my perspective, it would be very useful to have some kind of formalized Appeals Process. I'm not so much worried about "overturning" director's decisions, but rather trying to educate some of the players...

[fred]

If NS have an agreement that they might bid a 3-card
heart suit before a 4-card spade suit, they should alert
the 1H response.

Sounds like NS did not exactly have an agreement at the
time this happened, but that they do now. I would not
adjust the score, but warn them to alert in the future if
that is really how they bid.

For whatever it's worth, from a bridge point of view I
think that 1H is ridiculous.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[xx1943]

Hallo Ingrid,

your decision not to adjust was 100% ok.
I admire your patience with this rude guy.
I had him booted much earlier and reported to abuse.

regards

Al

[Free]

East player is an idiot! He gets a bad score, someone didn't bid the way he would, and thinks he can get an adjustment. Has he ever read anything important about the rules?? Does he understand how and why certain rules are applied? I don't think so... If north bids 1♠ and you reach 6♠, will he complain then??? Pfff!

No adjustment is correct, and the 1♥ bid is also ridiculous, but that's not the point

Btw, I'd even warn that eastplayer for wasting my precious time...

[hrothgar]

fred, on Jul 5 2004, 11:23 PM, said:

For whatever it's worth, from a bridge point of view I
think that 1H is ridiculous.

Maybe I've been playing too much Polish Club...

Playing Polish Club, following the auction 1♣ - 1♦, opener should systemically rebid 1♥ with a balanced hand with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades. Some very good theorists spent a lot of time pouring over this sequence.

In my mind, this sequence is very similar. In particular, partner has opened 1♦ in third seat and could be quite light. You're not exactly sitting on a powerhouse and need to worry about finding the best part score.

1♥ looks like a pretty practical bid, particular if you are planning to pass most rebids. At the very least, I would hesitate to call it ridiculous.

[EricN]

Hi Ingrid,

As far as I'm concerned, you handled this A-ok

The pros and contras of the 1♥ bid are irrelevant.
Only interesting question is: did N-S have an understanding which was not alerted - and the chat record shows they did not.

I suggest you report E-W - both of them for accusing opps of cheating, and East for quitting the tournament.
That should result in an very clear warning at least. Maybe a suspension would even be better - it would allow them time to read some basic material about the Laws

Eric

[the hog]

"Playing Polish Club, following the auction 1♣ - 1♦, opener should systemically rebid 1♥ with a balanced hand with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades."

Sorry to contradict you Richard, but this is not right. Matula in fact recommends 1H only on 3244. With 4S he ALWAYS recommends 1S.

[hrothgar]

The_Hog, on Jul 6 2004, 02:24 AM, said:

"Playing Polish Club, following the auction 1♣ - 1♦, opener should systemically rebid 1♥ with a balanced hand with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades."

Sorry to contradict you Richard, but this is not right. Matula in fact recommends 1H only on 3244. With 4S he ALWAYS recommends 1S.

Ron, if another player had said this to me, I would question their knowledge of Polish bidding systems. As is, I'm forced to conclude that Matula changed system definition.

I'm holding a copy of "The Polish Club" by Matula, published by the Scania BridgeKonsult in 1994. Quoting from page 22:

"There are only 2 bids that a prepared club opener can chose from having heard a 1♦ response. They are 1♥ and 1♠. For safety reasons and for serious systemic considerations, I think that the traditional mehtod of bidding the longer major or the cheaper major with equal length in Hearts and Spades should be modified as follows.

After 1♣ - 1♦, opener bids 1♥ with all major suit combination except when he holds 2 Hearts and 4 Spades. Then he bids 1S."

[the hog]

Lol. I have the same page open now . I have always interpreted this differently Richard in that you bid your 4 card Major if you have one but if you have no 4 card Major but a three card M you bid that. Reading this section again, your interpretation may well be right. I will email Marek Wojcicki and ask him and let you know.

Cheers
Ron

[the hog]

The reply I received was that Matula recommends a 1H response with the hand shapes Richard suggested, thought that is quirky to Matula. Most PC players will bid a 4 card M if they have one, else bid 1H on a 3 card suit. So mea culpa Richard.

[xx1943]

hrothgar, on Jul 5 2004, 04:06 PM, said:

Playing Polish Club, following the auction 1♣ - 1♦, opener should systemically rebid 1♥ with a balanced hand with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades.  Some very good theorists spent a lot of time pouring over this sequence.

If this bid is systemic you have to alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al

[Gerardo]

xx1943, on Jul 6 2004, 04:32 AM, said:

hrothgar, on Jul 5 2004, 04:06 PM, said:

Playing Polish Club, following the auction 1♣ - 1♦, opener should systemically rebid 1♥ with a balanced hand with 3 Hearts and 4 Spades.  Some very good theorists spent a lot of time pouring over this sequence.

If this bid is systemic you have to alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Al

Of course! I adjusted 3♥ to 4♥ once, after 1♣ : 1♦ : 1♥, then opps intervened and stopped in 3♥.

Bids were Polish, 1♥ there is 3+, none of them alerted, opener had exactly 3♥. (opps had a 9-card fit, I think). Should be somewhere on these forums.

But this one is NOT the case, 1♥ was 4+, so bid was fine, and EW had no grounds to complain.