[quiddity]

Are there any good rules of thumb for evaluating hands with a long suit opposite a NT opener? For example, today I held QJx x QT9 AJ9xxx and partner opened 2NT (matchpoints). Is this a slam, an invite, or a sign-off? How do you make the decision? Are you counting some number of points for length or trying to calculate partner's expected number of aces/kings or something else?

[Phil]

This hand looks like a GF to me.

Depends on your methods. If available I would transfer to clubs and show my short hearts.

The object is to try to avoid a bad 3N with heart weakness, but if I'm playing with a stranger I would probably bash 3N and hope for the best.

[effervesce]

Phil, on Aug 30 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

This hand looks like a GF to me.

Depends on your methods. If available I would transfer to clubs and show my short hearts.

The object is to try to avoid a bad 3N with heart weakness, but if I'm playing with a stranger I would probably bash 3N and hope for the best.

Partner opened 2NT.

Slam is possible, but not too likely and if you try for slam, its unlikely you can play in 4NT/5NT if slam is not on- 5m is usually terrible at MPs. The hand has 7 losers, and a typical 2NT opener has 5-6 cover cards. Thus over 2NT I bid 3♣, puppet, if partner has 5 spades then I'll try for slam, otherwise I'll settle for 3NT.

[EDIT] Looking at it again, I think it may well be worth a slam try anyway - if partner accepts then I think slam is odds-on, if not then it won't be.
2NT-4♣ slam try in clubs - hopefully partner's 4NT bid is rejecting the slam try, anything else a cuebid.

[mike777]

quiddity, on Aug 30 2009, 10:15 PM, said:

Are there any good rules of thumb for evaluating hands with a long suit opposite a NT opener? For example, today I held QJx x QT9 AJ9xxx and partner opened 2NT (matchpoints). Is this a slam, an invite, or a sign-off? How do you make the decision? Are you counting some number of points for length or trying to calculate partner's expected number of aces/kings or something else?

3nt...game try.

[Codo]

This is a clear GF with slam interst.

You have around 31 HCPs between your hands and a sure fit with a 6 card suit.

If I had to make just one bid, this is 6 club. Second choice 6 NT.

In my (non standard methods) I would bid 4 Club.
I have no idea which method you have to show a long minor with short hearts, but whatever you have to make a move towards slam in a minor, use it. If you have no tool, bid slam and discuss one method for the next session.


For the evaluation: There are some differernt methods, for beginners I like the one from the french system: Count your HCPS and add one point for each card in a suit after the 4. card. (So here two points for the 5. and 6. club).
But this is just done with suits with at least 3 HCPS in it. This is no lock, but usefull for beginners to start a sort of hand evaluation.

[Fluffy]

quiddity, on Aug 31 2009, 03:15 AM, said:

Are there any good rules of thumb for evaluating hands with a long suit opposite a NT opener? For example, today I held QJx x QT9 AJ9xxx and partner opened 2NT (matchpoints). Is this a slam, an invite, or a sign-off? How do you make the decision? Are you counting some number of points for length or trying to calculate partner's expected number of aces/kings or something else?

evaluating is a work for 2 people. There is no real rule of thumb here that I know of, just experience.

I recomend imagining the best hand partner can have, and the worst as well, see how many tricks you make on each and think about something in between.


But as I said first, partner has to evaluate as well before you make a final decision!.

Bidding 4♣ letring partner bid 4NT/5♣ if he doesn't wanna paly 6♣ by any means. will help you deciding the final contract.

[Phil]

effervesce, on Aug 31 2009, 01:05 AM, said:

Phil, on Aug 30 2009, 11:11 PM, said:

This hand looks like a GF to me.

Depends on your methods. If available I would transfer to clubs and show my short hearts.

The object is to try to avoid a bad 3N with heart weakness, but if I'm playing with a stranger I would probably bash 3N and hope for the best.

Partner opened 2NT.

My bad then. Way too good for a GF - but again, depends on methods.

[kenrexford]

Wow. I read this wrong the first time and was trying to visualize slam interested opposite a 1NT opening. It is possible, but partner would have to have a super-max that many would upgrade (AK-AK-K) or the contract would likely be on a finesse.

Then I noticed that 2NT was opened.

[Quantumcat]

Bid 4♣ - opener will accept with aces outside clubs and middle cards inside clubs, and reject with small clubs and kings and queens outside clubs. He can bid: 5♣ with a weakness somewhere or he really doesn't like his hand for some reason and can't bid 4NT. 6♣ with all the aces outside clubs and non-minimum. 4NT with middle stuff in all suits outside clubs and not a club fit. 4♦/♥/♠ (cue) with a non-min but not all the aces outside of clubs and a club fit. Opposite 4NT and 5♣ you will be happy to play there (if in the bid of 5♣ he had a heart weakness - that would be a shame but the opponents would have bid 3 or 4 hearts at some point in that case) and after 4♦ you will bid 4♥, after 4♠ or 4♥ sign off in 5♣ (and be disappointed you're not in 3NT).

With regards to a 1NT opener and a long suit, it will only be worth something in NT if you have a potential entry to it. Just try to imagine your partner with three small or jack or queen doubleton, and if it'll run for four or five tricks, you can bid 3NT with a 6 or 7 count. If it is not of this quality, you are better off playing in the suit (then your small cards in the suit will be worth something, but will be totally useless in NT).

[nigel_k]

Slam bidding is all about imagining hands partner might hold. You can't really do it with a rule-based evaluation.

Someone (Terence Reese?) once suggested you should invite slam if it will be laydown opposite a perfect minimum. Here, you could be opposite Kxx Axx AKx KQxx so the hand clearly qualifies to invite at least.

I always use the worst possible hand as well. Anything with two small clubs is obviously bad, otherwise maybe Axxx KQJx AKJ Qx? This is extreme and you still have some play.

I would make a slam try in clubs then bid slam unless partner signs off immediately.

As for the matchpoints issue, I would choose 6♣ in a weak field where I expect to win just by avoiding bottoms. In a decent or better field, 6NT.

[the hog]

QJx x QT9 AJ9xxx

Could be virtually cold for slam opposite a 1NT opening
(AK xxxx AKx Kxxx)
So you have to try for slam opposite a 2NT opening.

I agree with the comments made by Nigel in the above post.

[Cascade]

nigel_k, on Sep 1 2009, 09:25 PM, said:

Someone (Terence Reese?) once suggested you should invite slam if it will be laydown opposite a perfect minimum.

My recollection is that this was attributed to Culbertson.

[ochinko]

I add a point for the fifth card. The sixth could be even worth two. So with this hand I want to be in a slam. I don't have the science for an invitation. If I have a transfer to ♣ I do it, then I blast off to 5NT for partner to pick from 6♣ and 6NT. Yes, we could be two aces short, but I still believe odds are on my side.

[ONEferBRID]

I wonder what you folks use for your Minor Suit structure over a 2NT open?
Mine sucks.
Here is one that appeared in the May 2006 ACBL Bulletin with later modification by Fred Hamilton to try to "right side" a long minor contract:

I got this from Fred Hamilton:

2NT -  3S! ( puppet to 3NT )*
3NT -   ?

* Needed for 3NT contracts since a direct 3NT = 4-4 in the Majors

4C = Long diamond slam try, 4D by opener is keycard ask.
4D = Long clubs slam try, 4H by opener is keycard ask.
4H = both minors, short in hearts
4S = both minors, short in spades
4NT = balanced slam invitational hand with 4-4 in the minors

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
so let's take one of Nigel's examples:

A x x x      Q J x
K Q J x     x
A K J      Q T 9
Q x       A J 9 x x x

2NT - 3S!
3NT! - 4D! ( long Cl, slammish )
4H! (RKC) - 4NT ( 1 or 4 )
??
( off 2 key cards )

[neilkaz]

Good to see a decent method over 2NT openings. Standard methods stink for finding minor suit slams in general. I think that most good methods start with 3♠ being a puppet to 3nt.

I am curious as to why 3nt is needed to show 4-4 majors? I have seen good methods where 3nt means something else and can be MSS-like.

.. neilkaz ..