[jillybean]

(1♥) X (P) 2♦
(2♥) 2N?

(1♥) X (P) 2♦
(2♥) 2♠?

How much is 2N and 2♠ here?

[gwnn]

The first one ought to be about a 2NT opener but could be a little less than that.

The second one is a double then spades hand, something like 8-9 playing tricks or 18+ (this depends a bit on style).

[rbforster]

about 20ish I think. More clear in the second case, where you've got a hand just strong enough to X and then bid a new suit. In the first case, you're showing a stronger NT than a direct overcall (15-18), although I suppose you aren't forced to bid over the 2♥ call so maybe that's got some additional inferences.

[jillybean]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 1♥    Dbl   Pass  2♦
 2♥    2NT   Pass  3NT
 Pass  Pass  Pass  


I thought I had to go back to bridge kindergarten, my partner was playing 2N as 10-11
Happy ending, it made.

[gwnn]

well bid, jb's p lol

[helene_t]

lol, your partner wanted to play 2NT vulnerable with his 14 points opposite a possible yarb?

[jillybean]

But who am I to argue, look at the result!

[gwnn]

BTW the original t/o double was also real bad.

[Jlall]

gwnn, on Aug 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

BTW the original t/o double was also real bad.

Real bad? Even if you don't like it I don't see how it could be real bad. Certainly seems very marginal either way (because half your HCP are in hearts), I would do it against many opps.

[gwnn]

I agree my comment was an exaggeration. I don't like it but it can be successful.

[neilkaz]

gwnn, on Aug 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

BTW the original t/o double was also real bad.

Forgive me for disagreeing with you. The doubler has 14 HCP and 4♠ and maybe nothing is wasted.

Yes, there are some significant minus but IMO they are overcome by having 14 likely useful HCP and 4♠ albeit 4 small ones.

I am less a fan of off shape t/o X than some, but I have to double here and bring my decent hand and ♠ into the picture.

If you reduce the hand to a mundane and flat 12 count, then pass is clear for me.

EDIT: I see that you've allready stated that you exaggerated.

[aguahombre]

Standard auction at the club. N/S happy with result, blissfully unaware of the consequences on other hands of showing 20 when one has 14. Might have gotten to 3NT anyway, if south decided 3D was better than 2D as an advance to a takeout double. But 3D is close at best in response to a traditional T/O double and probably wrong opposite today's random 13 cards and 13 points.

With silent opponents there are two ways to get to 3NT. North could open a 15-17 1NT, and when invited decide his 14 was a maximum. Or, North might open 1C, and when partner responds 1D, decide his hand is a maximum 1NT rebid and rebid 2NT instead. I would expect a Zero at the club for not choosing one of those 3 paths.

[vuroth]

jillybean, on Aug 17 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

I thought I had to go back to bridge kindergarten, my partner was playing 2N as 10-11

As helene_t said, why on earth do you want 2NT to be 10-11, when partner may have 0 HCP??

[pooltuna]

gwnn, on Aug 17 2009, 12:29 PM, said:

BTW the original t/o double was also real bad.

had support for the unbid suits and a minimum opening hand....meets my criterion.

[Double !]

I guess there is a trend these days toward making takeout doubles on flat minimums, just to get into the bidding. But, while I have occasionally done it, it's not something that appeals to me because of the limited trick-taking potential in isolation, and because it is so far from the template pattern for a takeout double. It's hands like this that contributed to my becoming a strong advocate of 13-16 1NT overcalls, Not Vul.

That given, I think the 2NT rebid (which should be better than a 1NT overcall range) was inconsistent with what you had the right to expect. You still has another bid coming and, you might have competed with 3C. Don't base your decision-making on results: Bridge is a game of percentages. Except for some players, there is no perfection every time.
(btw: how good would 3NT have been had the diamonds split badly?)

DHK

[pooltuna]

jillybean, on Aug 17 2009, 09:22 AM, said:

(1♥) X (P) 2♦
(2♥) 2N?

(1♥) X (P) 2♦
(2♥) 2♠?

How much is 2N and 2♠ here?

In the first auction I would say 19 would be the min. I ramp up my 1NT overcalls to the 16+ to 18 range, so X and NT rebid is stronger. In the second you have 2♠ and 3♠ available to split the range below game but it should have the same meaning as a 2♠ bid made without the 2♥ interferance.

[Cascade]

2NT is too strong for a 1NT overcall.

2♠ is too strong for a 1♠ overcall (and 2♠ if that is intermediate - although you only promise five spades for 2♠ here).

The upper limit for the standards for a 1♠ overcall are very high in some partnerships.