[plaur]

Scoring: MP

---

Why are these hands difficult to bid with a normal no fancy stuff BI bidding system ? (opps silent).
Looking at both hands its easy to count 15 from top, but at a local tourn 6♥ was the most played contract!

[Quantumcat]

1♥ 1♠
3♦* 3♥
3♠** 4NT
5♦*** 7NT

*forcing to game
** cue (now North knows his spades run)
***3 or 0 (obviously 3, with the gameforcing 3♦)

North knows both hearts and spades are running, 5+6=11, plus the AK clubs and partner's ♦A = fourteen tricks. South even produces the ♦K for fifteen.

The key bid is South's spade cue. It is very important to tell your partner about help in his suit! In some partnerships, in certain auctions, you can cue queens in your partner's suit.

[Cascade]

Looks easy with a strong jump shift:

1♥ 2♠
3♦ 3♥
3♠* 4NT
5♣ 7♥

*cue - always a top honour in partner's suit.

Perhaps I can try harder and get to 7NT but I don't yet know about the second spade in south and stiff king would be awkard.

[kenrexford]

I'll respond philosophically, not gadgetry.

The problem with most trouble sequences is in strain resolution (what is trumps). Here, a likely normal start might be 1♥-P-1♠-P-3♦. If so, strain is unresolved at a very high level. Resolving strain still needs to be accomplished.

Granted, strain should be resolved now by Responder bidding 3♥, but it took a while nonetheless to get to that point, a "while" meaning bids all the way through 3♥. Ideally, if strain could be resolved earlier, that would be better.

A 2♦ rebid does little to help, as then Responder must resolve strain with a fairly high bid of 4♥, if he also shoots low, of some contorted fourth suit bid and an ensuing stumble bunny forward. That likely will kill any intelligent sequence.

(In contrast, consider a VERY strange-looking but WORKING 2♣ response, if GF. Opener bids 2♦, and Responder sets trumps and GF by bidding 2♥. Sure, that seems weird, but look how nice it is to agree trumps at that low of a level.)

The second most common problem, IMO, is then what to do about it when strain is resolved. Without any effective cue structure, no one really knows what to do or what anything means. So, people just plunk about. hat helps little.

Then, as a third problem, you might be able to visualize possible wild trick-taking ability but not have a means to ask whether your assumed possible holdings exist. Instead, you rely on general quantitative moves ("I'm interested in slam" or "I'm thinking grand") without any definition as to why, and whoever makes the ultimate decision has no clue whether he has the goods. Panic results in a low shot. This is deemed practical, rather than a fruit of incomplete methods.

[louisg]

Quantumcat, on Aug 17 2009, 07:10 PM, said:

1♥ 1♠
3♦* 3♥
3♠** 4NT
5♦*** 7NT

*forcing to game
** cue (now North knows his spades run)
***3 or 0 (obviously 3, with the gameforcing 3♦)

North knows both hearts and spades are running, 5+6=11, plus the AK clubs and partner's ♦A = fourteen tricks. South even produces the ♦K for fifteen.

The key bid is South's spade cue. It is very important to tell your partner about help in his suit! In some partnerships, in certain auctions, you can cue queens in your partner's suit.

I disagree strongly. 3♥ does not set the trump suit, so 3♠ is not a cuebid. Imagine, for example, opener with 3=5=4=1 opposite responder's 5=2=3=3 with no club stopper. Responder's 3♥ is a common waiting bid in such auctions, and opener's 3♠ can be on xxx.

This hand can probably be solved without a strong jump shift by responder (which makes it rather trivial), but it's not as easy as it looks.

[mike777]

plaur, on Aug 17 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> MP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQ98xx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> QJx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> x </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AKx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> KJ </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AKxxx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AKTx </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> xx </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->
Why are these hands difficult to bid with a normal no fancy stuff BI bidding system ? (opps silent).
Looking at both hands its easy to count 15 from top, but at a local tourn 6♥ was the most played contract!

not that easy but yes you should reach the grand.

at the very least reach 7s or 7h......if not 7nt....


1h=1s
3d=3h
3s=4nt
5c=6c showing KC, confirm all key cards( deny KH)
6d=6h
7h=7nt

4nt=rkc for spades
5c=0-3
6d=Kd
6h=grand try....
7h=must be k of h on this auction....

granted I overuse rkc auctions compared to many in the forum...

[aguahombre]

with sa and no gadgets, the answer to the original post is yes --but not impossible, as shown by the ones who replied.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

simplest bidding seq. would be something like

1H - 4NT (1)
5C (2) - 5NT (3)
5H (4) - 7H / 7NT

(1) RKCB, not beautiful / not fancy, but it will do the job most of the time,
you will have +28HCP, if your opening style is normal (*).
And you control every suit, except hearts, and RKCB will tell you about
the trump control.
(2) 0/3 - you can certainly contruct hands with 0 KC, which would have
opened, but than you are already to high, so just treat it as 3KC,
if you go down, go down with style, in a blaze of glory sourounded by fire.
(3) Asking for kings, excluding the king of trumps
(4) two kings

To answer your question, why it seems so hard:
If you dont have detailed agreements you need to understand and to
accept, that you will sometimes be forced to on some risks, as long as the
risk is not too high, as in the current situation -if opener does not have a
KC, this would mean, he needs to have all the other honors to have 12HCP
for his opening bid, you will do fine.

And yes, there are better ways to reach this slam, I like the SJS seq., but for
the given set, you dont need them.

(*) And another important thing is, know your own style and the style of your
partner, a knowledge wihich is even more important in low level bidding
seq. and in competitive auctions, so investing time to get this knowledge is
well invested and will pay lots of dividents.


With kind regards
Marlowe

[plaur]

Thanks for answers. The hand was played at 14 tables last night.
A flight
4 -1010 1
1 -1520 -4
B flight
3 -1010 2
2 -1510 -3
C flight
3 -510 1
1 -1520 -3
I think most auctions started
1♥ 1♠ Playing wjs
2♦ 3♣ 4th suit forcing

[P_Marlowe]

plaur, on Aug 18 2009, 05:30 AM, said:

Thanks for answers. The hand was played at 14 tables last night.
A flight
4    -1010  1  
1    -1520  -4  
B flight
3    -1010  2  
2    -1510  -3  
C flight
3    -510  1  
1    -1520  -3
I think most auctions started
1♥ 1♠ Playing wjs
2♦ 3♣ 4th suit forcing

Hi,

the main problem is 2D, which is fairly conservative, you could use stronger words.

The bid is not wrong, but it is extrem conservative, if the KJ would be in clubs
downgrading makes some sense, but KJ are honors in partners suit, i.e. upgrading
to a game force (you have 18HCP, for a real gf you need 19HCP) has a lot more
appeal.

After the given start it certainly becomes a bit tougher.

1H - 1S
2D - 3C (1)
3H (2) - 3S (3)
4D (4) - 4NT (5)
5C (6) - 5S (7)
6S (8) - Pass (9)

(1) gf
(2) default rebid, could be 5-4, denies 3 spades, denies a club stopper, some play
3D as default rebid
(3) 6 card suit, slam interest, basically setting the suit
(4) cue for spades, denies a club cue, even a shortag, because you already denies
a club stopper, bidding 4C now has to be shortage, the likely diamond wastage
is a minus for responder
(5) RKCB,
(6) 0-3, 0 being a real possibility, upto now opener did not promise more than a
pure min
(7) to play oppossite 0 KC
(8) 3KC
(9) no room to find out about the king

Basically this auction is an example for my statement in the previous post, that
you need to take on some risk, bidding 3D instead of 2D is riskier, but not by
a huge degree, in fact you risk more with 2D, because responder will quite often
pass with 8HCP, and if he has 8HCP you should have a fair chance to fullfill game.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[Codo]

It depends on your style.

When your jump shift after 1 ♥ 1 ♠ can be made on this hand, this is quite easy. And to me 3 Heart sets trumps after a jump shift to 3 ♦.

1♥ 1 ♠
3♦ 3♥
3♠ 3NT (King, serious3NT)
4♦ 4NT (control, RCKB)
5♣ 5♦ (3, Kings?)
5♠ 5 NT (Spade King, else?
6♦ Responder now knows K, AKxxx,AKxx. He knows that partner jump shifted and that he has something like the queen of club or diamond and or the jack of spades extra, so 7 Heart is a fair bet.

If you take the low road, like they did in the club, it is getting fuzzy pretty early.

1♥ 1♠
2♦ 3 ♣
and now? No bid fits. I guess I would bid 4 Spade, which would produce 7 NT quickly, but this is far from certain.

[Cascade]

plaur, on Aug 18 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

I think most auctions started
1♥ 1♠ Playing wjs
2♦ 3♣ 4th suit forcing

There is the problem - "playing wjs".

There isn't anything seriously wrong with this method although it is not my favourite. However people introduce these gadgets without contemplating how the formerly easy hands that were covered by a strong jump shift will now be bid.

[ONEferBRID]

plaur, on Aug 17 2009, 07:01 PM, said:

Dealer: South Vul: ???? Scoring: MP

♠ AQ98xx ♥ QJx ♦ x ♣ AKx ♠ KJ ♥ AKxxx ♦ AKTx ♣ xx

Why are these hands difficult to bid with a normal no fancy stuff BI bidding system ? (opps silent).
Looking at both hands its easy to count 15 from top, but at a local tourn 6♥ was the most played contract!

1H - 1S
3D - 4NT*
5C - 5S**
5NT - 7H ( counting on Sp suit to be set up with a ruff or 2 )



_____________________________________________
3D... = SJS, GF
*4NT = when NO suit has been agreed,
......... RKC is for the jump-shifter's 1st suit.
......... Agreement for the 2nd suit is 4D.
..........Agreement for EITHER suit, slammish would
.............be the 4th suit ( 4C here ) = advance cuebid.
.........3H would have shown a minimum Response
........... with as few as 2 card support; just showing preference.
.........4H = a 3 card limit raise hand that would have
.............jumped to 3H over a minimum 2C/2D rebid by Opener.

5C ...= 0 or 3, obviously 3
**5S = specific K-ask, guaranteeing all key cards and trump Q.
.............5D would have been next step hQ-ask.
...........2nd ( non-trump) step ( 5S here) = spec. K-ask.

5NT..= bidding cheapest NT shows feature asked for in the asking suit.

[kenrexford]

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 06:39 AM, said:

plaur, on Aug 18 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

I think most auctions started
1♥ 1♠ Playing wjs
2♦ 3♣ 4th suit forcing

There is the problem - "playing wjs".

There isn't anything seriously wrong with this method although it is not my favourite. However people introduce these gadgets without contemplating how the formerly easy hands that were covered by a strong jump shift will now be bid.

Good thought. Not having SJS means that you might want some tools with other sequences to deal with that hole.

[BillHiggin]

Cascade, on Aug 18 2009, 06:39 AM, said:

plaur, on Aug 18 2009, 10:30 PM, said:

I think most auctions started
1♥ 1♠ Playing wjs
2♦ 3♣ 4th suit forcing

There is the problem - "playing wjs".

There isn't anything seriously wrong with this method although it is not my favourite. However people introduce these gadgets without contemplating how the formerly easy hands that were covered by a strong jump shift will now be bid.

IMHO, the OP represents a particular hole in standard (including 2/1) methods. When responding to 1♥ with a GF hand including heart support and a spade suit which is a likely source of tricks, a 1♠ response basically does not show any of these attributes in a clear way. This means that you have a lot of catching up to do (or you must take control yourself). Other supporting type strong hands with a suit which represents a likely source of tricks get part of the message across with the first bid (at least the strength part - also the genuine suit if it is red and you use 2♣ as a catchall 2/1).

I think it makes sense to define a 2♠ jump response to 1♥ as a strong Soloway type bid even when your other jump responses are weak.

[Cascade]

That is a good and interesting thought.

Strong Jump Shifts definitely give up something as hands that are easy with them become difficult especially for beginner/intermediates who are not confident which bids are forcing without them.