[shyams]

Scoring: MP

Playing with a pickup partner in the club. We play 5-card majors, 15-17 NT (something like SAYC) and 2/1 is NOT GF.
As dealer, I opened this hand with 1H (please feel free to comment)
South North
1H - 2C
2H - 2S
3S - 4C
???

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[jillybean]

4♠, (edited) 4♣ is a cue bid in ♠ or 6+ ♣'s? What ever it is it is forcing, 2♠ set the gf.

If 4♣ is a cue I should show partner my ♥A but in a pick up partnership and with this hand, Im happy to bid 4♠.

I like your 1♥ opening.

[TylerE]

Abstain. Hate 3♠. I would bid 3♦ instead so we get to 3N when it's right.

[vuroth]

4♥ now, showing my ace. Obviously, earlier questions about whether I should make a courtesy control showing bid below game, or limit my hand and just bid game (4♠), remain.

I don't like 1♥. This hand is fundamentally no different than:

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...which not only fails the rule of 20, but seems like a max but reasonable 2♥ bid to me.

That's just my intermediate opinion, though.

[bid_em_up]

vuroth, on Aug 14 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

This hand is fundamentally no different than:

Dealer: ????? Vul: ???? Scoring: Unknown

♠ K64 ♥ AQJ963 ♦ 987 ♣ 2

You got that right!! In fact, it's exactly the same!!

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

[655321]

I like 1♥. The hand will play well in spades if partner has spades, and opening 2♥ is likely to lose a spade fit.

I don't like 3♠, and would have bid 3♥ instead. Partner will expect 4 cards for the spade raise - if we did have 4 spades, we could not rebid 2♠ without showing extra values.

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Aug 14 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

vuroth, on Aug 14 2009, 08:07 AM, said:

This hand is fundamentally no different than:

<!-- ONEHAND begin --><table border='1'> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td> Dealer: </td> <td> ????? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vul: </td> <td> ???? </td> </tr> <tr> <td> Scoring: </td> <td> Unknown </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> <span class='spades'> ♠ </span> </th> <td> K64 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='hearts'> ♥ </span> </th> <td> AQJ963 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='diamonds'> ♦ </span> </th> <td> 987 </td> </tr> <tr> <th> <span class='clubs'> ♣ </span> </th> <td> 2 </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- ONEHAND end -->

You got that right!! In fact, it's exactly the same!!

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

Look closer

[Phil]

Agree with 4♥, and I don't like 3♠.

In case you are wondering, pass is not a consideration.

[bid_em_up]

jillybean, on Aug 14 2009, 09:33 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Aug 14 2009, 06:57 AM, said:

You got that right!!  In fact, it's exactly the same!!   

I would not open 1H, so I don't have this problem.

Look closer

Oh.

I stopped looking at singleton jacks a long time ago, which explains why I think it's the same!

(I swear I looked at the hand 3-4 times initially trying to see the difference, even after you said look closer, it still took me another 2-3 attempts before I finally recognized the difference, stiff J, stiff 2, they all look the same to me!)

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Aug 14 2009, 08:03 AM, said:

(I swear I looked at the hand 3-4 times initially trying to see the difference, even after you said look closer, it still took me another 2-3 attempts before I finally recognized the difference, stiff J, stiff 2, they all look the same to me!)

Good point

[aguahombre]

Max, but reasonable 2H opening? You must be old like me. today, people think it is more helpful to partner to open 2H with KX JXXXXX QXX AX (MAX).

[Cascade]

Hate 3♠. It is almost never right to raise partner's second suit immediately with only three-card support.

3♥ was a fine alternative emphasising the good six-card suit.

Now after I have mislead partner into thinking that we have a spade fit my choices are to cooperate with 4♥ or to further mislead with 4♠ denying a heart control. I think I have to bid 4♥.

[neilkaz]

Cascade, on Aug 14 2009, 12:15 PM, said:

Hate 3♠. It is almost never right to raise partner's second suit immediately with only three-card support.

3♥ was a fine alternative emphasising the good six-card suit.

Now after I have mislead partner into thinking that we have a spade fit my choices are to cooperate with 4♥ or to further mislead with 4♠ denying a heart control. I think I have to bid 4♥.

Agreed and I feel a train wreck coming on.

HATE 3♠ !!

As for the opening..take your choice between 1♥ and 2♥ noting your are vul.

For me, playing RONF I can still may get to ♠ after opening 2♥ as PD can bid them with a sound opening hand and decent 5 card suit.

However, if your style is aggressive weak 2's. PD isn't likely to believe that you have this good of a hand so just open 1♥.

[jillybean]

Youre right. 3♠ isn't good, ignore my answer.

[vuroth]

655321, on Aug 14 2009, 09:32 AM, said:

I like 1♥.  The hand will play well in spades if partner has spades, and opening 2♥ is likely to lose a spade fit.

Would it be fairer to say that:

---

Is a better maximum 2♥ open? I'll admit the 3631 shape had me a little worried.

Quote

I stopped looking at singleton jacks a long time ago, which explains why I think it's the same!

Sorry, was just trying to make a point that I think counting the club for 1HCP is pretty bad.

[kenrexford]

This is a 2♥ opening. So, I dislike 1♥. 1♥...2♥ is a stronger bid than 2♥ initially.

2♥ is boxed.

3♠ is bizarre. It shows four-card support. 2♠ by Opener would have been a reverse, so 3♠ now says I have four spades and less than a reverse.

After 4♣, clearly a cue, bid 4♠ and pray. Anything else encourages partner, who thinks you have four spades and actually opening strength, when you have neither, plus slam interest on top of that.

[nigel_k]

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

Definitely 3♥ instead of 3♠. You could still have four spades here and now partner is looking for slam in a 4-3 when you have a minimum and no fit. I wouldn't bid 3♦ either as your hand is mainly hearts and 3♦ will encourage partner to bid 3NT on too many hands where 4♥ is better. If he bids 3NT over 3♥ then we are happy.

4♥ is a cue bid now so all you can do is bid 4♠ and hope partner passes and is able to make it.

[kenrexford]

nigel_k, on Aug 14 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

[vuroth]

kenrexford, on Aug 14 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Aug 14 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

I have to admit, I'm tempted to start a new thread asking if I should be spanking weak 2 openers a lot more often.

[aguahombre]

vuroth, on Aug 14 2009, 05:32 PM, said:

kenrexford, on Aug 14 2009, 04:47 PM, said:

nigel_k, on Aug 14 2009, 04:23 PM, said:

Prefer opening 1♥ rather than 2♥. Even without the jack of clubs, you have a very good 10 as all cards are working and you have the honour combination in hearts.

You are alowed to have a good hand, good suit when you open a weak two, you know.

I have to admit, I'm tempted to start a new thread asking if I should be spanking weak 2 openers a lot more often.

yup