[Rain]

http://web04.bridgebase.com/vug/13_12_2009...02%20of%206.lin

Was looking for the hand

[kenrexford]

Very proud moment. I just covered up the E-W hands on the vugraph and had my wife play the hand. She played the diamond 6 on the opening lead, played low again on round two, and then one round three said...

"Well. I still have to lose a club, so I might as well ruff. Wait a minute..."

Then, a small club, after an excruciating but exciting delay while she thought.

[JLOL]

LOL at thinking getting this right when it's posted as a problem means you will always get it right at the table. I'm sure that all of the people who got this wrong at the table would also have gotten it right on paper.

The reason many of the forumers who are good analysts and get all the problems right all the time don't win everything is not because they suck at bidding, it's because people make mistakes in real time competition where most of the routine looking hands are actually routine.

A lot of you who mock people for getting a hand like this wrong would also get it wrong after playing for a week straight and not having a wire on this board that it is a textbook hand, or you would make some other stupid mistake that you would not have thought yourself capable of, and would never make in isolation.

[qwery_hi]

JLOL, on May 28 2009, 06:18 PM, said:

LOL at thinking getting this right when it's posted as a problem means you will always get it right at the table. I'm sure that all of the people who got this wrong at the table would also have gotten it right on paper.

The reason many of the forumers who are good analysts and get all the problems right all the time don't win everything is not because they suck at bidding, it's because people make mistakes in real time competition where most of the routine looking hands are actually routine.

A lot of you who mock people for getting a hand like this wrong would also get it wrong after playing for a week straight and not having a wire on this board that it is a textbook hand, or you would make some other stupid mistake that you would not have thought yourself capable of, and would never make in isolation.

That depends on how good they are at pattern recognition. Routine hands which are part of a seen before pattern would be difficult to get wrong.

[Codo]

qwery_hi, on May 29 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

it's because people make mistakes in real time competition where most of the routine looking hands are actually routine.

That depends on how good they are at pattern recognition. Routine hands which are part of a seen before pattern would be difficult to get wrong.

This is not true.

I remember when a friend of mine, a bridge pro told the story, where he forgot the answers to RCKB in his partnership with his standard partner during an European Championship.
Okay, this was an extreme example, but when you follow the vuegraph of any big tournement, you will see that this best bridge is played in the prelimaries, not in the final.

So it is amazing what "horrible" mistakes you can make when you are tired or just lost the focus.

[kenrexford]

JLOL, on May 28 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

A lot of you who mock people for getting a hand like this wrong would also get it wrong after playing for a week straight and not having a wire on this board that it is a textbook hand, or you would make some other stupid mistake that you would not have thought yourself capable of, and would never make in isolation.

For the record, if I made this mistake at the table under the provided conditions, I would join and have in similar situations joined the chorus of people mocking me for that play.

The shocker is not that someone made the mistake. That's no shocker. People F-up all the time. Brain farts happen. The shocker is that 75% made the mistake at the highest level of the game.

[Phil]

JLOL, on May 28 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

A lot of you who mock people for getting a hand like this wrong would also get it wrong after playing for a week straight

You do realize that this was in the semi finals on Mondays don't you? Three of the teams were on their third day. Dinkin was playing their first day.

But yeah, the travel, the stress of qualifying, and just being in Sacramento can deteriorate your game. Not surprising that this play was missed at the table.

[qwery_hi]

Codo, on May 28 2009, 10:27 PM, said:

qwery_hi, on May 29 2009, 03:12 PM, said:

it's because people make mistakes in real time competition where most of the routine looking hands are actually routine.

That depends on how good they are at pattern recognition. Routine hands which are part of a seen before pattern would be difficult to get wrong.

This is not true.

I remember when a friend of mine, a bridge pro told the story, where he forgot the answers to RCKB in his partnership with his standard partner during an European Championship.
Okay, this was an extreme example, but when you follow the vuegraph of any big tournement, you will see that this best bridge is played in the prelimaries, not in the final.

So it is amazing what "horrible" mistakes you can make when you are tired or just lost the focus.

There is conscious memorization and subconscious pattern recognition. RKCB falls into the former category.

[NickRW]

qwery_hi, on May 29 2009, 03:07 PM, said:

There is conscious memorization and subconscious pattern recognition. RKCB falls into the former category.

Well, I see what you mean - but in practice, even that isn't always true. I remember a case where I was playing RKCB with a particular partner - she opened 1♠ - I had a 19 count I think it was with support and made whatever the forcing noise we'd agreed was - then she launched into RKCB - I was absolutely seething that she had taken captaincy out of my hands that I consciously remembered what we were playing - but the bid that came out of the box was the unconscious answer to regular blackwood.

Nick

[bill1157]

The experts do make plenty of mistakes, but they make fewer mistakes than the rest of us. For a hand like this, though, they should get it right, because in team trials there isn't much in the way of time pressure: certainly they could take 1 minute at trick 1 and come up with the right play, as Ken's wife did.

Bill

[hanp]

I didn't know that JLOL was so sensitive about mocking! Most of the discussion has been about the fact that this is indeed a BI problem, and that world class players *should* get this right. That does not mean that a world class player will never make a mistake like this, of course not, but 3 out of 4 players getting it wrong is remarkable.

Perhaps it does mean that this kind of play is hard to get right at the table even for very good players. Perhaps it also means that some of the players in this event aren't very good. To put a more positive spin on it, perhaps being world class is about geting the BI hands right routinely.

Edit: post not edited so that Justin can read it entirely.

[JLOL]

kenrexford, on May 29 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

The shocker is that 75% made the mistake at the highest level of the game.

Are you joking?

edit: Just read Han's post above. Are you guys actually saying that playing in the semi finals (top 4 teams) of an 8 team womens event makes you a world class player? Give me a break.

And FWIW I'm not saying that no women are world class players, I don't believe that, but many in this event are not and i'm sure they would agree with that.

[Phil]

JLOL, on May 29 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 29 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

The shocker is that 75% made the mistake at the highest level of the game.

Are you joking?

That 75% made the mistake or this isn't the highest level of the game?



eidt: saw your edit

This post has been edited by Phil: 2009-May-29, 10:58

[qwery_hi]

JLOL, on May 29 2009, 08:55 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 29 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

The shocker is that 75% made the mistake at the highest level of the game.

Are you joking?

edit: Just read Han's post above. Are you guys actually saying that playing in the semi finals (top 4 teams) of an 8 team womens event makes you a world class player? Give me a break.

And FWIW I'm not saying that no women are world class players, I don't believe that, but many in this event are not and i'm sure they would agree with that.

I thought being on BBO was qualification enough to make you a world class player.

I'm a commentator on the forums, and while I agree that some of my fellow forum commentators need to work on their jokes, the rest of you should realize that it is your privilege to have us comment on here.

[jdonn]

kenrexford, on May 29 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

JLOL, on May 28 2009, 09:18 PM, said:

A lot of you who mock people for getting a hand like this wrong would also get it wrong after playing for a week straight and not having a wire on this board that it is a textbook hand, or you would make some other stupid mistake that you would not have thought yourself capable of, and would never make in isolation.

For the record, if I made this mistake at the table under the provided conditions, I would join and have in similar situations joined the chorus of people mocking me for that play.

In the world junior pairs championships in 2006 I got to 3NT with two balanced hands of 30 hcp, every suit stopped at least twice, and AKQxx opposite xx breaking 3-3. In my efforts for overtricks I misread and misguessed everything and managed to go down (actually salvaging a few matchpoints from people down in slams).

The very first thing I did after the session was run to the bulletin room and find Barry Rigal. It did end up in some bulletin a few days later, I think for the camp actually.

If someone can't laugh at themself in public for stupid mistakes then I don't want to lead their life.

[kenrexford]

JLOL, on May 29 2009, 11:55 AM, said:

kenrexford, on May 29 2009, 06:55 AM, said:

The shocker is that 75% made the mistake at the highest level of the game.

Are you joking?

edit: Just read Han's post above. Are you guys actually saying that playing in the semi finals (top 4 teams) of an 8 team womens event makes you a world class player? Give me a break.

And FWIW I'm not saying that no women are world class players, I don't believe that, but many in this event are not and i'm sure they would agree with that.

Well...

I think there's technically a difference between "World Class Player" and "Highest Level of the Game," in that I meant that the USBF championships is part of the highest level of the game for the event type. In other words, presumably the best of the best competitors for the women's group should be playing.

However, I did not realize that only eight teams entered the event. That's rather shocking, unless there's some sort of invitational aspect of the event. I'd hate to see the U.S. represented by just some random winner among only eight teams.

Then again, this one hand makes me re-think...