[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

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Nordic Junior Teams Championship in Iceland over Easter. Your RHO opens a natural 1♣, you bid 4♥, and the tray comes back with pass, 5♦ by partner and pass to your right.

Question 1:
What is 5♦ and what do you bid now?

Question 2:
What would 4♠ and 5♣ have been?

Roland

[inquiry]

Walddk, on Apr 13 2009, 01:09 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

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Nordic Junior Teams Championship in Iceland over Easter. Your RHO opens a natural 1♣, you bid 4♥, and the tray comes back with pass, 5♦ by partner and pass to your right.

Question 1:
What is 5♦ and what do you bid now?

Question 2:
What would 4♠ and 5♣ have been?

Roland

After I have bid 4♥'s, sadly or gladly hearts will be trumps. 5♦ is a slam try. question becomes what kind of slam try. Not asking for club control (that would be 5♥).

So three logical alternative exist, but one is not logical.

The first "logical" alternative is it is either a cue-bid
The second is it is an "exclusion" bid
The third is that it is asking for slam with great hearts (since 5♥ ask for slam with club control on this auction.

Ok, I will eliminate 5♦ as a cue-bid. Partner can hardly lack controls in either black suit and be asking me for slam.

If partner and I play exclusion, I assume we have agreed to it so I would know if it was or not. Therefore, if we had no such agreement, I would take it as asking for good trumps which I have. I would accept, and bid 5@S hoping to get a chance to cue-bid 5@D too for a possible 7@H.

Yes. this is why I lose at bridge.

4S woudl be cue, 5C would be either cue or exclusion depending upon our agreements.

[Flameous]

Spoiler

5♦ is natural nonforcing slam try essentially in diamonds but partner can correct to hearts at any point. I'm bidding 5♠

Ok, some results merchanting as I saw the deal

I think these would be my preferred methods. (At least the basic structure)

4♠ puppet to 4NT, after which 5♣ and 5♦ are EKCB and 5♥ looking for ♣ control.
4NT is EKCB in ♠.
5♣ shows spade suit, slam invitational too.
5♦ as I said in hidden text.
5♥ I don't know, asking for great trumps might be one use, perhaps some quantitative type raise, asking for two side controls or something.

[mtvesuvius]

This is a problem that Cecelia Rimstedt of Sweden faced...

I know the hand also, but here are my thoughts:

4♠: Relays 4NT (5♣ then Exclusion for ♣, 5♦ then Asking for ♦ cotrol, 5♥ then Asking for ♣ control)
4NT: 1430 for ♠
5♣: Spades; Slam Try (Since ♣ cannot be Natural)
5♦:

Spoiler

Natural; Slam Try

5♥: Asking to bid slam with 2 outside controls (Since you already should have good trumps)

This isn't something that I have ever thought about in detail, but it's a very interesting problem!

[Walddk]

mtvesuvius, on Apr 13 2009, 02:08 PM, said:

This is a problem that Cecelia Rimstedt of Sweden faced...

... and Anne-Sofie Houlberg of Denmark at the other table. They both got it 'wrong', which just shows that you need a specific agreement. I won't show the other hand just yet, but is it worth spending too much time over a sequence like this?

I bet some top pairs have an agreement, but my estimate is that the number is pretty low.

Roland

[Apollo81]

I am sure 4♠ over 4♥ should be to play. 5m is worth having an agreement about. I would bid 5♠ here and then pass whatever red suit partner bids, or bid 6♦ over 6♣.

[whereagles]

I actually have clear agreements on all those bids (transfer advance style: 4♠ = control asking bid, 5♣ = diamonds, 5♦ = good heart raise).

If this were a casual partnership, I would do:

Over 5♦: this is either a bucketload of diamonds or some sort of heart support. In any case I'm bidding 6♦.

Over 5♣: I'd take this as some sort of heart raise. Now I'd bid 5♦.

Over 4♠: I'd take this as... natural and pass.

[kenrexford]

This is tough.

I could see plauisble agreements, depending on the partnershop style as to a 4♥ call and as to general partnership style.

One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try. I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though. Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem. Hence, maybe like a picture bid.

Another is that this is simply the only slam try available with a club control (or without one). I mean, 4♠ could be an override, 5♣ could be the slam try that has the opposite meaning as 5♦ (as to the club control situation), and 5♥ might actually be furthering the preempt. Who knows? Maybe 4♠ even asks for shortness.

Tough problem without discussion.

[whereagles]

kenrexford, on Apr 13 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try.  I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though.  Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem.  Hence, maybe like a picture bid.

What are you talking about? The person responding to a preempt doesn't show what he has: he asks for information. FNJs and picture bids are made when partner is unlimited, not when he has a very well defined hand type.

Unless pard's preempt style is totally wild, using 5♦ as a "pass the bucket" bid seems like wrong strategy to me. The consequence of this error is the bidding ending up in 5♥ 95% of the time, going down quite more often than 4♥.

[kenrexford]

whereagles, on Apr 13 2009, 11:37 AM, said:

kenrexford, on Apr 13 2009, 04:20 PM, said:

One simple idea is that 5♦ is a fit non-jump, meaning a diamond-oriented slam try.  I'm not sure what this should say about clubs or spades, though.  Maybe the heart Ace and KQJxx in diamonds is enough, in which case the lack of a club stop is a problem.  Hence, maybe like a picture bid.

What are you talking about? The person responding to a preempt doesn't show what he has: he asks for information. FNJs and picture bids are made when partner is unlimited, not when he has a very well defined hand type.

Unless pard's preempt style is totally wild, using 5♦ as a "pass the bucket" bid seems like wrong strategy to me. The consequence of this error is the bidding ending up in 5♥ 95% of the time, going down quite more often than 4♥.

True, which is why I actually like the idea of 5♦ and 5♣ each being general quantitative slam tries, one with and one without the club control.

[Fluffy]

I play that over my 4♥ openings a cue shows the suit in wich I don't have the control, and that's what I would understand on this sequence.

I'd bid 5♠ just in case I was very wrong .

About what 5♣ sould be... ugh, a general slam try if that makes any sense, probably asking about trumps.

[JLOL]

4S would be to play, not sure what this 5D bid is supposed to be, I would bid 5H.

[mikeh]

If partner thinks she is improving the contract, we will have a discussion (much) later about what 4♥ means/shows.

So I think this can be read as a forward-going move, but what kind of move? How can she look for slam off the diamond A and have no club control? My guess is that she has absolute club control (void, stiff A or AK), chunky diamonds headed by the King and surprising hearts. Thus xxxx Axx KQJxxx void or the like

She isn't interested in bidding 5♣ because she won't expect us to bid a meaningful 5♦ over it... she's expect us to have to bid 5♥ since we rate NOT to hold first round control in both side suits.

So I like her bid, if I can trust both of us to be on the same page, and I try with 5♠... if I hear 6♣, I'll pass the buck via 6♦... altho confusion could set in across the table at that point.

I am not going to bid 7 by myself, since she might bid the same way with xxxx xxxxx KQJx void or the like... I mean, the odds are good that we'd have no trump losers opposite that hand, from her perspective.

[Walddk]

Scoring: IMP

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Both North players tried to bid a natural 5♦ (who can blame them?), but it was not interpreted as such. Rimstedt and Houlberg both pulled to 5♥, passed. Not a success; down 2 and a flat board.

What North and South could have done to avoid this is not clear I think.

Roland

[Walddk]

JLOL, on Apr 13 2009, 10:07 PM, said:

4S would be to play, not sure what this 5D bid is supposed to be, I would bid 5H.

So you're in good company, Justin. Rimstedt and Houlberg are both World Junior Champions and they both pulled as you see above. I've got one question, though. If 4♠ is to play, why can't 5♦ be?

Roland

[jdonn]

Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass.

[JLOL]

jdonn, on Apr 13 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass.

Josh Donn, junior world champ.

[jdonn]

JLOL, on Apr 13 2009, 05:03 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 13 2009, 04:54 PM, said:

Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass.

Josh Donn, junior world champ.

I take that to be another way of saying "yes"?

[gnasher]

jdonn, on Apr 13 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass.

Me too.

[mikeh]

gnasher, on Apr 13 2009, 05:54 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 13 2009, 10:54 PM, said:

Am I on another planet? It would not occur to me that either 4♠ or 5♦ would be to play. I think north on the actual hand just has to pass.

Me too.

me too