[gwnn]

Qx
AKQ9x
AQxx
Ax

1♠-p-2♠-?

Opps are usually sound bidders. All white MP's. What's your (full) plan?

[hanp]

Double, fully planning to bid hearts next.

[jdonn]

hanp, on Mar 23 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

Double, fully planning to bid hearts next.

It seems pretty obvious. Am I missing something?

[mikeh]

The double is clear (I think).

I think the interesting question on this hand, which may well not arise, since we may not have the necessary agreement, and/or the sequence may not occur, is what to do if partner advances via a 2n scramble, which he should do with the expected yarb or near yarb and 4/5, 5/4, 4/4 or 5/5 in the minors.

Personally, given that the opps are solid citizens, and at equal vul, I'd be more interested in maximizing my thin chances for a plus or minimizing my likely minus score than in maximizing the size of my plus, and would therefore bid 3♦ over a scrambling 2N.

[JLOL]

I wish my opps rolled over and died every time i opened and responded. We need so little for game here, not to mention we are going to miss the wrong partial when partner is 3334 and scrambles over our double.

[mikeh]

JLOL, on Mar 23 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

I wish my opps rolled over and died every time i opened and responded. We need so little for game here, not to mention we are going to miss the wrong partial when partner is 3334 and scrambles over our double.

If you were one of my opps, I would double and bid hearts, as I would with virtually all the frequent posters, but that wasn't the condition of contest. You're a professional player... don't you pay attention to your opps' tendencies?

[JLOL]

mikeh, on Mar 23 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

JLOL, on Mar 23 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

I wish my opps rolled over and died every time i opened and responded. We need so little for game here, not to mention we are going to miss the wrong partial when partner is 3334 and scrambles over our double.

If you were one of my opps, I would double and bid hearts, as I would with virtually all the frequent posters, but that wasn't the condition of contest. You're a professional player... don't you pay attention to your opps' tendencies?

I don't care what their tendencies on super easy hands like this when the DK + 3 hearts makes game fine. I will never play my partner to have 0 points because it is very unlikely to begin with, and I never play my opps to have great hands because they have bid and raised a suit. maybe if they had opened 2N I would. I have a way to describe a strong hand with hearts. I have 21 HCP and hearts. Hearts may be our best partial or game. It is mp. Even "usually sound players" understand shape and fits and bid accordingly. There are so many reasons to double and bid hearts.

[mikeh]

JLOL, on Mar 23 2009, 07:20 PM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 23 2009, 07:09 PM, said:

JLOL, on Mar 23 2009, 06:32 PM, said:

I wish my opps rolled over and died every time i opened and responded. We need so little for game here, not to mention we are going to miss the wrong partial when partner is 3334 and scrambles over our double.

If you were one of my opps, I would double and bid hearts, as I would with virtually all the frequent posters, but that wasn't the condition of contest. You're a professional player... don't you pay attention to your opps' tendencies?

I don't care what their tendencies on super easy hands like this when the DK + 3 hearts makes game fine. I will never play my partner to have 0 points because it is very unlikely to begin with, and I never play my opps to have great hands because they have bid and raised a suit. maybe if they had opened 2N I would. I have a way to describe a strong hand with hearts. I have 21 HCP and hearts. Hearts may be our best partial or game. It is mp. Even "usually sound players" understand shape and fits and bid accordingly. There are so many reasons to double and bid hearts.

I understand some (considerable) logic behind bidding 3♥, the most important of which is that partner might make the scramble call on 3=3=3=4.

As for playing partner for the diamond K and 3+ hearts... all I can say is WOW!

We hold 21 hcp, and the opps have bid and raised, and are described as solid bidders, in a seat and vulnerability where even light bidders don't psyche.

maybe your partners always hold (specific) hcp when the opps bid like this and you own this hand.. mine don't.

Yes, a priori, partner rates to hold hcp, but we are no longer in an a priori situation. It seems stubborn (to be polite) to refuse to allow the opps bidding to alter our perception of partner's likely holdings.

I am not arguing vehemently for 3♦ over a hypothetical scramble, but I am arguing that aiming for game in this scenario is a bit weird... it's not as if your dream holding of xxx xxx Kxx xxxx makes game very good.. after all, if the opps are at all solid, the odds go up that the reds are not 3/2 and 3/3 since they have bid and raised on 16 hcp.

[JLOL]

mike what about when partner has scrambled with 44 in the reds? or 2344. I don't know what else to add.

[Codo]

Reading that " Opps are usually sound bidders. All white MP's. "

Partner has no entry, no established fit, my chances of making 3 Heart are below 50 %. The diamond finesse is not often working, even when I am able to reach partner.

Please, don't compare this situation with your usual junior games, where 1 ♠ 2 ♠ could be done on a total 12 HCps with a little shape.

I would still double but would not be surprised when passing is the winning call.
After the double, I would pass partners 3 in a red suit bid and bid 3 HEart over 3 Club and 3 Diamond over 2 NT.

[jdonn]

mikeh, on Mar 23 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

I'd be more interested in maximizing my thin chances for a plus or minimizing my likely minus score

Codo, on Mar 24 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

my chances of making 3 Heart are below 50 %.

I hope I don't ever become this, um, optimistic.

[mikeh]

jdonn, on Mar 24 2009, 09:50 AM, said:

mikeh, on Mar 23 2009, 06:27 PM, said:

I'd be more interested in maximizing my thin chances for a plus or minimizing my likely minus score

Codo, on Mar 24 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

my chances of making 3 Heart are below 50 %.

I hope I don't ever become this, um, optimistic.

Why not try a simulation? I am not at a computer where I have the software, but it should be easy to simulate: define LHO as 5+ spades, 12+ hcp (they are sound bidders.. and defining it as 11 would require weeding out a large number of non-openers) and rho as 3-4 spades (assuming they don't play a form of bergen) and say 5+ hcp. Then generate 100 hands and see on how many 3♥ is likely to make. My gut (not the most reliable prognosticator in the world) tells me that 3♥ is probably less than 50%... but still usually better than defending 2♠.

If I am shown to be wrong, then your sarcasm is well-founded... if not... then maybe you should reconsider which shots you take

[JLOL]

Codo, on Mar 24 2009, 04:27 AM, said:

Please, don't compare this situation with your usual junior games, where 1 ♠ 2 ♠ could be done on a total 12 HCps with a little shape.

lol, you realize that I play about 1 "junior game" every 2 years, as opposed to say 6 nationals and 2 trials every year, and infinite regionals against either old ladies/men or pros. my bridge experience is from the real world, and that experience shows that "usually sound" people still account for shape and will almost always open with 55 11 counts, and will not hesitate to raise with 4 points and a stiff. Those are not even borderline cases (as they shouldn't be).

my experience also suggests the average junior field in a world championship to be of similar agression than the average open field.

[whereagles]

jdonn, on Mar 23 2009, 11:17 PM, said:

hanp, on Mar 23 2009, 05:30 PM, said:

Double, fully planning to bid hearts next.

It seems pretty obvious. Am I missing something?

LOL

(Ok just kidding. Missing nothing )

[gwnn]

pd had

xxx
xxxx
x
JTxxx

K of clubs lead -> easy 420

I included the hand because I had a few friends who said pass in tempo wtp? I didn't understand how I pass with a 21 count with the same distribution that I'd act on a 12 count.

[mikestar]

Obvious double, will raise 3♥ to four and will bid 3♥ over anything else. If partner has a heart fit, there will be a play opposite a fair number of yarbs. A no brainer IMHO.