[Stephen Tu]

Situation:

Former foreign international player (30+ yrs ago) of some repute back then (2nd, 3rd Euro teams, Rosenblum/BB participant) moves to U.S. 30 yrs ago, apparently doesn't play a ton during last few decades but playing more last few years. Didn't get points transferred over. Enters 0-5000 limited event on team of 5, but later disqualified.

Opinions on what should happen to rest of team?

[hrothgar]

Here's my opinion. I don't claim that this is based on any kind of established precedent, but this is what seems fair to me:

First: I'd like to get some background information regarding why this suddenly came to the forefront. From the sounds of things, the player in question has been competing in 0-5000 point events in the US for quite some time. What caused this to flair into a crisis in the middle of an event?

Second: Associated with this, I would try to table any discussion of this topic until the conclusion of the event. There is no good way to preserve the equity of the event. Let's assume that you go the disqualification route: Regardless of whether you disqualify the international player or the entire team, you're going to bias the results of the event in favor of those teams that were lucky enough NOT to meet the ringer. Regardless of whether you're running a KO or a a round robin, you're pretty much screwed. I wouldn't want to waste much time trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again if I could possible avoid it.

Ideally, I'd simply let the flawed event run to completion with the complete complement (ringer included). Crown a winner. Address the problem so it doesn't happen again. If folks bitch about Master Points, tell them that its only a game.

If this is a KO type GNT final or something similar this is a lot less practical. Here, my preferred course of action would be to keep the ringer on the team and pray that they manage to get themselves KOed. If they do, the whole problem goes away. If not, then you have real problems.

[mycroft]

When this happened in the case I knew, it wasn't teams, but the internationalist was playing pro in Flight B. When someone pointed out his entry in the ACBL Encyclopaedia, that stopped :-).

The CoC for ACBL events at the Nationals (both Swiss and KO) are clear:
"In flighted events at any level, foreign players who have represented their
country in International competition shall be permitted to play only in Flight
A. They may however apply for relief for cause from this requirement." (General Conditions, All Events)

"An ineligible player is disqualified. The ineligible player’s team will be disqualified unless
the Director-in-Charge determines that teammates were unaware of the deficiency of the disqualified member. Any team reduced to fewer than three original members due to disqualification of ineligible players is disqualified." (General Conditions, Team Events)

(Swiss regs then go on to say what happens to their opponents' scores).

I'd say "follow the regulations", I guess.

[TimG]

Stephen Tu, on Aug 5 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Situation:

Former foreign international player (30+ yrs ago) of some repute back then (2nd, 3rd Euro teams, Rosenblum/BB participant) moves to U.S. 30 yrs ago, apparently doesn't play a ton during last few decades but playing more last few years.  Didn't get points transferred over.  Enters 0-5000 limited event on team of 5, but later disqualified. 

Opinions on what should happen to rest of team?

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have 5000 points -- I know at least one person who represented their country in the Bermuda Bowl ~20 years ago that doesn't have 5000 MP (or didn't a year ago). But, for the purpose of this thread, it seems best to stipulate to him not being eligible.

I think the ineligible player should be immediately disqualified and the team proceed with out him. If it were a four person team, I would do the same and require a substitute.

I'm not sure the offending team should be awarded any masterpoints, or credited with a win should the remaining team do well. But, this doesn't really concern me much. If the ineligibility was discovered after the conclusion of the event, I would not award the team any masterpoints for the event.

All teammates that were aware of the unrecorded points and thus the probable ineligibility should be subject to the same sanctions. (I understand that it will be difficult to prove who knew and who did not.) There should be sanctions for knowingly entering an event for which you were not eligible. But, I have no idea whether this is part of ACBL regulations.

[Stephen Tu]

Ineligibility not discovered/ruled upon until after event's conclusion, which team in question won (KO event).

As for teammates knowledge, have been playing on teams with him for several years at least, so almost certainly know of his background, but who knows if they knew that could/should/would make him ineligible for the event. My feeling is they should have checked before entering?

What now?

[mycroft]

My guess (and it certainly was in the example I mentioned earlier) was that the MPs were okay, and the rank-and-file didn't know about the "if you've played for your country, you're in flight A" rule.

[Stephen Tu]

FWIW 0-5000 is considered "flight A" (flight B is 0-2000). So apparently the MPs were ruled not OK, as his name was removed from the results; if they were OK presumably nothing should have happened and I wouldn't be asking about this.

My question is whether the rest of the team should or should not be penalized.

[blackshoe]

You do what the conditions of contest say to do. If Mycroft's report is accurate, the CoC require the TD to determine whether the rest of the team were aware of the disqualified player's situation. If they were, they're disqualified. wtp?

[Mbodell]

I have no strong opinions but the general conditions of contest include:

Quote

a. Foreign Players (those who reside outside the geographical boundaries of the ACBL and who are not citizens of an ACBL country) who are not members of ACBL are not permitted to play in any North American Bridge Championship events.

b. In flighted events at any level, foreign players who have represented their country in International competition shall be permitted to play only in Flight A. They may however apply for relief for cause from this requirement.

c. Players with bridge experience from non-ACBL venues (such as but not limited to play in other countries) must check with the DIC to insure that they are placed in the proper category and/or seeded correctly.

So the question should be does this player who has represented another country count as a "foreign player" if he's been living in the ACBL and playing ACBL events for a while?

Let's say you happened to play on the Polish international team in 1972. Let's say you moved to the US in 1979 to pursue your day job (not bridge related) and have been playing in ACBL events and accumulating master points for the past 25+ years. Let's further say you have less than 5000 of them.

Should you be ineligible to play in the mini-Spingold 0-5000 event? And what happens if this comes to light after you're team has won the event?

I mean it makes sense that foreign international players who don't live in the US but come to the US for the first few times shouldn't play the mini-Spingold 0-1500 (why would they want to?) but might they be eligible for the 0-5000 since they might be seeded being flight A (over 2000) but not over 5000? But if you've been living in the US for a very long time aren't you more a normal ACBL member? So shouldn't you play according to your ACBL master points if you've been earning them for the past 20+ years?

[Aberlour10]

Krzysztof Jassem wrote on his polish blog about a funny situation at the Nationals in Las Vegas. In the frist days of the tournament he wanted to register his fourhanded team for a morning side event. The ACBL-Mate asked him how many points he and his teammates have achived. He thought about it a second and said: " I dont know, but we won Vanderbilt early this year" The nice women looked at him and wrote : 100 000

Robert

[pigpenz]

for awhile back in the eighties if you have not played for several years they would allow you to drop back a flight, how they made that deremination i dont know. I thought the days of the fight b pro were over with

[Stephen Tu]

Mbodell, on Aug 5 2008, 04:10 PM, said:

I mean it makes sense that foreign international players who don't live in the US but come to the US for the first few times shouldn't play the mini-Spingold 0-1500 (why would they want to?) but might they be eligible for the 0-5000 since they might be seeded being flight A (over 2000) but not over 5000?  But if you've been living in the US for a very long time aren't you more a normal ACBL member?  So shouldn't you play according to your ACBL master points if you've been earning them for the past 20+ years?

I think you are supposed to play according to
(actual ACBL points) + (ACBL points awarded as conversion from your foreign NBO's points + any converted WBF points)

Supposedly the 2nd part wasn't ever done for this person until now, and put him over the limit. I don't think there's any provision for those converted points reverting to zero after you've been here for X years, like all points they don't decay. Maybe points ought to decay but that's another argument entirely for a different thread.

[Echognome]

I have some sympathy for the guy. It took quite a bit of effort to get eligibility points when I moved back to the United States.

I came back and talked to a TD at a regional event. The TD was very friendly and understanding and said that I should get a certain amount of points towards eligibility. He then said for me to just add those to our team total for any KO and that he would enter them into the acbl database.

That didn't happen. In fact nothing happened for a long time. Finally, I emailed Rick Beye. Rick was actually easy to deal with. He wanted some explanation behind my request and I provided him with several results (links to websites that carried results from national and regional tournaments or their equivalent). After a few emails back and forth, I got an email from Memphis telling me that I had been awarded eligibility points.

Result of all this: I accumulate points slower! The eligibility points are "colorless" meaning that for any rank I have to earn the appropriate amount of gold, red, silver, and black points to make life master. I have already earned the gold a few times over. The gold can substitute for the red. I understand the silver points as they want to boost attendance at sectionals. I'm pretty close to the silver criterion, although I play in very few sectionals. However, I'm a long way off the black points. It'll take me forever to accumulate black points from clubs. If I didn't get eligibility points, then I'd score in "C" every time I played. However, it would seem silly to go that route and I did apply for them so I could play in "A". The only thing that bugs me about the whole process is why not at least count the points as black rather than no color at all?

[TimG]

Well, black, like silver, are a ploy to get players in a specific venue. I was once in NYC at a regional when they announced the unit's mini-mckenney winners. Rosenberg, Fallenius, Lev and Zia all won their category and we hadn't even gotten to the top category which was won by a Becker. I wouldn't be surprised if Rosenberg won a national event or two before he became a life master.

[blackshoe]

Sabine Auken (who was then Sabine Zenkel) had to get special permission to play in some National event when she first came to the US. She made Life Master at that NABC (though perhaps not in that event). Took her eight weeks, beating Jeremy Flint's (I think it was) previous record by three weeks. That was back in the 1980s.

[rbforster]

Stephen Tu, on Aug 5 2008, 02:04 PM, said:

Opinions on what should happen to rest of team?

When dealing with political and unclear bridge situations like this, I've heard the effective thing to do is sue/threaten to sue until you get the outcome you want.

[paulg]

blackshoe, on Aug 6 2008, 01:54 AM, said:

Sabine Auken (who was then Sabine Zenkel) had to get special permission to play in some National event when she first came to the US.

Four of my team, first-time NABCers, wanted to play in the Life Master Pairs at Vegas. Each sent an email to the ACBL explaining their rank in the Scottish Bridge Union and received permission.

It was very simple even for 'club' players.

Paul

[han]

Cherdano (who recently became a sectional master, congrats Arend!) also emailed Rick Beye about permission to play in the LM pairs, it wasn't a problem.

[cherdano]

han, on Aug 6 2008, 02:10 AM, said:

Cherdano (who recently became a sectional master, congrats Arend!)

I have to correct that before anyone gets wrong impressions about my bridge abilities. I have roughly 30 platinum and 30 gold points, but no silver points. Being section master requires 5 silver points.
I wonder whether I will jump from Club Master to Bronze Life Master, since that is (if I understand the charts right) the first rank that does not require silver points. (I also wonder why "NABC master" requires silver points... Shouldn't this be called "NABC side game master" then?)