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Is it legal?

#1 User is offline   Simpleboi 

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Posted 2008-June-08, 21:00

During the middle of the play of a hand, Declarer is in dummy, he plays a card.. RHO then starts to think for some time without playing yet..

Can declarer change a card that he played from dummy when RHO hasnt followed to the trick yet?

Does he need to ask opps whether he can change the card? Also if immediately after asking opps RHO follows is it right to do so?

Also, is there any difference with/without screens?

Thanks for help :)
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#2 User is offline   kenrexford 

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Posted 2008-June-08, 21:04

No.
"Gibberish in, gibberish out. A trial judge, three sets of lawyers, and now three appellate judges cannot agree on what this law means. And we ask police officers, prosecutors, defense lawyers, and citizens to enforce or abide by it? The legislature continues to write unreadable statutes. Gibberish should not be enforced as law."

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#3 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 00:50

No.

The screens are up during the play of the hand.
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#4 User is offline   Rossoneri 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 06:49

No. Don't think there is any difference without screens either.

Alternatively, Fabian, ask Mr Liu or Dr Derrick.
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Unless explicitly stated, none of my views here can be taken to represent SCBA or any other organizations.
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#5 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 09:29

No he can't. The slot is lifted when screens are in use, so there's no difference.

I have heard of bids being retracted with screens however.
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#6 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 09:47

pclayton, on Jun 9 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

No he can't. The slot is lifted when screens are in use, so there's no difference.

I have heard of bids being retracted with screens however.

It is quite common for screen regulations to allow illegal bids (e.g. insufficient ones) to be changed with no penalty, because partner has no information.
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#7 User is offline   JoAnneM 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 09:49

LAW 45 CARD PLAYED

a) Play of Named Card
A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he
proposed to play.

(:huh: Correction of Inadvertent Designation
A player may, without penalty, change an inadvertent designation if he does so without pause for thought; but if an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw without penalty the card so played and substitute another (see Law 47E).
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Posted 2008-June-09, 17:20

FrancesHinden, on Jun 9 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 9 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

No he can't. The slot is lifted when screens are in use, so there's no difference.

I have heard of bids being retracted with screens however.

It is quite common for screen regulations to allow illegal bids (e.g. insufficient ones) to be changed with no penalty, because partner has no information.

Yep have seen this happen multiple times.
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#9 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 19:05

Jlall, on Jun 9 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jun 9 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 9 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

No he can't. The slot is lifted when screens are in use, so there's no difference.

I have heard of bids being retracted with screens however.

It is quite common for screen regulations to allow illegal bids (e.g. insufficient ones) to be changed with no penalty, because partner has no information.

Yep have seen this happen multiple times.

What happens when an illegal bid is pushed through to the other side? I'm not aware of anything in the laws assigning responsibility to the screenmate of the illegal bidder to check the sufficiency of the calls in the tray. Does is matter if the illegal bidder is the N/S player or the E/W player?

I've only played with screens a few times and this never happened to me.


On the original post -- I don't see any reason to allow declarer to change his card, but there is the Oh S**t case from the Vancouver NABC a while back...
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 19:10

xcurt, on Jun 9 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

On the original post -- I don't see any reason to allow declarer to change his card, but there is the Oh S**t case from the Vancouver NABC a while back...

The ruling in that case has been roundly and rightly criticized as being totally wrong. It is most certainly not an appropriate precedent for future rulings.
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#11 User is offline   Simpleboi 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 19:58

Ok.. thanks all for the help,

I guess shld be illegal to change card, especially even when realised misplayed :P
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#12 User is offline   xcurt 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 22:09

blackshoe, on Jun 9 2008, 08:10 PM, said:

xcurt, on Jun 9 2008, 08:05 PM, said:

On the original post -- I don't see any reason to allow declarer to change his card, but there is the Oh S**t case from the Vancouver NABC a while back...

The ruling in that case has been roundly and rightly criticized as being totally wrong. It is most certainly not an appropriate precedent for future rulings.

I agree with the sentiment and I would not have allowed a change of card in that case either. My trailing ellipse was intended to mean "some might see a reason to allow a change of card under some circumstances; it has happened before."

Of course, we don't know why declarer wanted to change his card. Did he call something else and not notice that dummy played the wrong card? Having been on committes where I have had to sort out what happened in claims and who-played-what situations from conflicting testimony I would prefer that there be something akin to touch-move in chess -- but those aren't the laws we have.
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2008-June-09, 22:12

xcurt, on Jun 9 2008, 11:09 PM, said:

I would prefer that there be something akin to touch-move in chess -- but those aren't the laws we have.

Too true. :D
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#14 User is offline   skjaeran 

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Posted 2008-June-11, 13:45

xcurt, on Jun 10 2008, 03:05 AM, said:

Jlall, on Jun 9 2008, 06:20 PM, said:

FrancesHinden, on Jun 9 2008, 10:47 AM, said:

pclayton, on Jun 9 2008, 04:29 PM, said:

No he can't. The slot is lifted when screens are in use, so there's no difference.

I have heard of bids being retracted with screens however.

It is quite common for screen regulations to allow illegal bids (e.g. insufficient ones) to be changed with no penalty, because partner has no information.

Yep have seen this happen multiple times.

What happens when an illegal bid is pushed through to the other side?

Then the normal laws (no screen) kicks in.
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