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♠T62 ♥A986 ♦872 ♣853
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1♣ (1♠) pass (pass)
Double (pass) - ?
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Ordinary Hand
#1
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Posted 2008-March-22, 16:03
"Phil" on BBO
#3
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Posted 2008-March-22, 17:16
ditto wtp?
Please let me know about any questions or interest or bug reports about GIB.
#4
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Posted 2008-March-22, 17:17
Lose 1.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.
- hrothgar
- hrothgar
#5
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Posted 2008-March-22, 19:31
2♥
I cannot even think of an alternative on this hand.
I cannot even think of an alternative on this hand.
Wayne Burrows
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon
#6
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Posted 2008-March-22, 23:38
2H. Only bid. Anything else deserves a big fat zero.
Ming
--Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
--Always remember you're unique. Just like everyone else.
#7
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Posted 2008-March-23, 00:08
2H. What happened on this board that you are posting this, Phil? 2H seems obvious.
"The King of Hearts a broadsword bears, the Queen of Hearts a rose." W. H. Auden.
#8 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 00:31
For some reasons on why I bid 2H:
1) The best reason is that when you bid 2H, you may get raised to 3H and find a game. On hands where partner does that he will often pass a 2C bid (or bid 3C over a 2S bid from the opps). For instance x KQTx Axx AKQxx
2) If the opps are going to let us play it at the 2 level partner probably has a doubleton spade. 2434 must be his most likely shape, and bidding 2C only really caters to 2335 (which would reopen 1N more often than 2434 if the hand had a spade stopper). If partner has 4 hearts and 5 clubs we want to be in hearts, and if partner has 2344 we want to be in hearts.
3) If the opps are going to compete to 2S and we are going to compete to the 3 level it's almost for sure in hearts since hearts will play much better than clubs, unless partner has six clubs in which case he can bid 3C himself. So 2H will leave us better placed.
1) The best reason is that when you bid 2H, you may get raised to 3H and find a game. On hands where partner does that he will often pass a 2C bid (or bid 3C over a 2S bid from the opps). For instance x KQTx Axx AKQxx
2) If the opps are going to let us play it at the 2 level partner probably has a doubleton spade. 2434 must be his most likely shape, and bidding 2C only really caters to 2335 (which would reopen 1N more often than 2434 if the hand had a spade stopper). If partner has 4 hearts and 5 clubs we want to be in hearts, and if partner has 2344 we want to be in hearts.
3) If the opps are going to compete to 2S and we are going to compete to the 3 level it's almost for sure in hearts since hearts will play much better than clubs, unless partner has six clubs in which case he can bid 3C himself. So 2H will leave us better placed.
#9
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Posted 2008-March-23, 00:35
Um hate to spoil the love fest here but I think 2H is far from obvious and wasnt my choice at the table. I bid 2C.
Its not like we have a game here and we are simply trying to find a partial that gives us a plus. Are the odds of hitting pard with 4 hearts better than 5 clubs? Frankly I dont know but I think its closer than everyone makes it out to be.
Id rather have pard playing this hand and the strong overcalling hand on lead.
Pard held KQ KQTx Kx AJxxx and competed to 3C over 2S. 3H is a little better since its tough for LHO to get on lead except T1.
Its not like we have a game here and we are simply trying to find a partial that gives us a plus. Are the odds of hitting pard with 4 hearts better than 5 clubs? Frankly I dont know but I think its closer than everyone makes it out to be.
Id rather have pard playing this hand and the strong overcalling hand on lead.
Pard held KQ KQTx Kx AJxxx and competed to 3C over 2S. 3H is a little better since its tough for LHO to get on lead except T1.
"Phil" on BBO
#10 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 00:39
pclayton, on Mar 23 2008, 01:35 AM, said:
Pard held KQ KQTx Kx AJxxx and competed to 3C over 2S. 3H is a little better since its tough for LHO to get on lead except T1.
A little better? I don't think thats a realistic assessment. 3H is much better**, and this is a good example of a hand where you want to be in hearts rather than clubs when your fits are equal.
**-keep in mind they will usually lead a spade not a diamond.
#11 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 00:43
pclayton, on Mar 23 2008, 01:35 AM, said:
Its not like we have a game here
We could easily have a game here, in hearts, and we will almost always miss it by bidding 2C. It is not hard to construct hands where 4H is cold, and we are certainly bidding it if partner raises our 2H bid.
Quote
and we are simply trying to find a partial that gives us a plus. Are the odds of hitting pard with 4 hearts better than 5 clubs? Frankly I dont know but I think its closer than everyone makes it out to be.
Even if they are equal you are leaving out the fact that if we have 2 7 card fits or 2 8 card fits in those suits we would prefer to be in hearts. There is a huge overlap in terms of that, and it's not like we will only have one fit or the other.
Quote
Id rather have pard playing this hand and the strong overcalling hand on lead.
This is really the only argument you gave for bidding clubs over hearts. Fair enough, this is true but I think it is a small think compared to the other issues.
#12 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 00:45
Sry for triple posting but this got me thinking, if you have xxx AKQx Axx AQx and it goes 1C 1S p p do you reopen with a double? It feels wrong to pass, but if you can reopen with this shape as well... hehe
#13
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Posted 2008-March-23, 00:46
I already talked to Phil about this, but I think I have to defend 2♣ just a little (I am a 2♥ bidder now but was briefly a 2♣ bidder).
What are partner's most likely shapes, assuming we open 1♦ on all 4-4m hands?
1345: 2♣ is better
1435: 2♥ is a little bit better, probably.
2434: 2♥ is better
2335: 2♣ is better
2434: 2♥ is better
Also, if we bid 2♣, our hand becomes dummy instead of partner's. It's possible that partner is even 1336 with bad clubs. Bidding 2♣ may also get us to hearts anyway when partner has a very strong hand.
Anyway, I think it is unlikely that one is dramatically +EV over the other.
What are partner's most likely shapes, assuming we open 1♦ on all 4-4m hands?
1345: 2♣ is better
1435: 2♥ is a little bit better, probably.
2434: 2♥ is better
2335: 2♣ is better
2434: 2♥ is better
Also, if we bid 2♣, our hand becomes dummy instead of partner's. It's possible that partner is even 1336 with bad clubs. Bidding 2♣ may also get us to hearts anyway when partner has a very strong hand.
Anyway, I think it is unlikely that one is dramatically +EV over the other.
#14
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Posted 2008-March-23, 00:46
2♥ looks normal...
#15
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Posted 2008-March-23, 00:48
Understand but reverse the pointed suits and the positionality would matter more.
Something else - give pard a strong 2245 and I think pard is just passing 2H with a shrug.
Saw your previous post. I think its pretty likely pard doesnt have a stiff spade here. I think most of the relevant shapes are 2434 / 2335 / 2245 /2425 /2236 and 2326.
Something else - give pard a strong 2245 and I think pard is just passing 2H with a shrug.
Saw your previous post. I think its pretty likely pard doesnt have a stiff spade here. I think most of the relevant shapes are 2434 / 2335 / 2245 /2425 /2236 and 2326.
"Phil" on BBO
#16 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 00:59
pclayton, on Mar 23 2008, 01:48 AM, said:
Understand but reverse the pointed suits and the positionality would matter more.
Something else - give pard a strong 2245 and I think pard is just passing 2H with a shrug.
Saw your previous post. I think its pretty likely pard doesnt have a stiff spade here. I think most of the relevant shapes are 2434 / 2335 / 2245 /2425 /2236 and 2326.
Something else - give pard a strong 2245 and I think pard is just passing 2H with a shrug.
Saw your previous post. I think its pretty likely pard doesnt have a stiff spade here. I think most of the relevant shapes are 2434 / 2335 / 2245 /2425 /2236 and 2326.
I think reopening with a X on 2(32)6 is retarded. That is a one suited hand, not a t/o X.
Agree that 2(42)5 is possible but some of those would just bid their second suit given that partner has a strong hand and some would X depending on honor structure. Some would bid 1N as well. So this shape can be discounted.
Again, I think we need to focus on getting to our only possible game, competing, and getting to what will probably be our best partscore (or if you disagree, with the last part it is certainly close at least).
#17 Guest_Jlall_*
Posted 2008-March-23, 01:02
pclayton, on Mar 23 2008, 01:48 AM, said:
I think its pretty likely pard doesnt have a stiff spade here.
This is true, but it's possible that RHO has 6 and LHO has 3. It is a dangerous auction for RHO to bid on since he may be getting trap passed (actually come to think of it I was RHO lol, and I had a very good hand but only had 5 spades. I think it would be a rare auction for me to bid 2S on). When partner has a stiff spade a game is fairly likely, and even if he has a doubleton spade game is possible especially opposite the 2425 that you talked about earlier..likely enough for me to risk playing 2H opposite 2245. I also think that a strong 2425 would be more likely to reopen with a X than a strong 2245 for the ability to find a heart game.
And finally FWIW I would have reopened with 1N on hans hand. Surprised he chose X, maybe it was to facilitate getting to 4H.
#18
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Posted 2008-March-23, 07:59
I have no idea whether this makes sense or not; I'm just thinking. Does anyone use any sort of scrambling or lebensohl thinking here?
I think of a parallel auction, where 1♥ is opened, 1♠ overcalled, and reopened. 1NT by Responder might make a lot of sense as scrambling (pick a minor).
How about this auction. 1NT as scrambling would enable Opener to rebid clubs when he has five of them. Responder could then pass when right, bid 2♦ ("nice, but pick a red suit please"), or even bid 2♥ (hearts, but I also have clubs partner). After 1NT-P-2♦, Responder could pass or bid 2♥ (hearts, but I also happened to have clubs partner). After 1NT-P-2♥, Responder expects 2-4-3-4 pattern and is pleased with 2♥ as the contract.
I mean, is a natural 1NT something that could be ditched for nice results like this?
I think of a parallel auction, where 1♥ is opened, 1♠ overcalled, and reopened. 1NT by Responder might make a lot of sense as scrambling (pick a minor).
How about this auction. 1NT as scrambling would enable Opener to rebid clubs when he has five of them. Responder could then pass when right, bid 2♦ ("nice, but pick a red suit please"), or even bid 2♥ (hearts, but I also have clubs partner). After 1NT-P-2♦, Responder could pass or bid 2♥ (hearts, but I also happened to have clubs partner). After 1NT-P-2♥, Responder expects 2-4-3-4 pattern and is pleased with 2♥ as the contract.
I mean, is a natural 1NT something that could be ditched for nice results like this?
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#19
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Posted 2008-March-23, 17:07
kenrexford, on Mar 23 2008, 05:59 AM, said:
I mean, is a natural 1NT something that could be ditched for nice results like this?
I like this idea. I don't boost up a free 1N call, and I doubt I need to play 1N after pard reopens.
"Phil" on BBO
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