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New suit by advancer at the 3-level Forcing or Not? Fitted or Not?

#1 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 18:53

Here is an example sequence:

(1♥) - 1♠ - (2♦) - 3♣

Do you think 3♣ should be forcing? If so, forcing to what level?

What if partner is a passed hand? Should it be forcing or not? Should it be fitted or not?
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#2 User is offline   brianshark 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 18:56

Double is often used as the 4th suit with some fit for opener. If so, I'd imagine this is non-forcing, non-fitted. Just a guess though.
The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice, there is.
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#3 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:03

Not forcing by an up hand. Fit by a passed hand.
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#4 User is offline   rogerclee 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:13

I play NF Constructive at the 2-level (after partner overcalls at the 1-level), forcing in all other situations.

Would also play 2NT here as some form of Lebensohl.
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#5 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:14

What if responder had passed?

E.g. (1♠) - 2♥ - (P) - 3♣

or (1♠) - 2♥ - (Dbl) - 3♣
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#6 User is offline   Echognome 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:15

rogerclee, on Feb 12 2008, 05:13 PM, said:

I play NF Constructive at the 2-level (after partner overcalls at the 1-level), forcing in all other situations.

Would also play 2NT here as some form of Lebensohl.

This is a good point. I guess my initial question was too vague and it sounds like a distinction between a 1-level and 2-level overcall is quite important.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:18

I suppose the first is forcing and the second is not. But it makes a difference that the overcall was at the 2-level, that has a narrower range so NF has less merit.
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#8 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:34

Echognome, on Feb 13 2008, 01:53 PM, said:

Here is an example sequence:

(1♥) - 1♠ - (2♦) - 3♣

Do you think 3♣ should be forcing? If so, forcing to what level?

What if partner is a passed hand? Should it be forcing or not? Should it be fitted or not?

Not forcing

Not fitted

Unless a passed hand then I promise at least tolerance for partner.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#9 User is offline   pclayton 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 19:36

Without discussion its forcing. I think it makes the most sense as either NF or fitted however.
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#10 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2008-February-12, 20:29

Never forcing.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#11 Guest_Jlall_*

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Posted 2008-February-12, 21:08

NF and absolutely hate "fit" even by a passed hand. Forcing when they've opened and made a 2/1 doesn't make much sense to me.

I play your 1S-2H-p-3C as forcing though (3 over 2).
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#12 User is offline   gnasher 

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Posted 2008-February-13, 01:52

I prefer: forcing if responder passed over the overcall, and non-forcing if he bid or doubled.

In the sequence originally given, if you find yourself looking at a strong hand with clubs, you can probably get away with doubling and then bidding clubs, which would be forcing.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
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#13 User is offline   Edmunte1 

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Posted 2008-February-13, 02:15

I play it NF as unpassed hand, but fitted as passed hand.
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#14 User is offline   cnszsun 

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Posted 2008-February-13, 02:22

Echognome, on Feb 13 2008, 09:15 AM, said:

This is a good point. I guess my initial question was too vague and it sounds like a distinction between a 1-level and 2-level overcall is quite important.

I know some players play a simple rule:
Non-forcing, if overcall is at 1-level;
Forcing, if overcall is at 2-level.
Michael Sun

#15 User is offline   Cascade 

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Posted 2008-February-13, 03:20

Jlall, on Feb 13 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

NF and absolutely hate "fit" even by a passed hand. Forcing when they've opened and made a 2/1 doesn't make much sense to me.

I play your 1S-2H-p-3C as forcing though (3 over 2).

Is double a partial fit and clubs?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

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Posted 2008-February-13, 10:37

Cascade, on Feb 13 2008, 04:20 AM, said:

Jlall, on Feb 13 2008, 04:08 PM, said:

NF and absolutely hate "fit" even by a passed hand. Forcing when they've opened and made a 2/1 doesn't make much sense to me.

I play your 1S-2H-p-3C as forcing though (3 over 2).

Is double a partial fit and clubs?

yes
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