[jmc]

I often play on BBO late at night and am not able or patient enough to play with people I know personally or who are members of a "trusted circle". I find it irritating when a new opponent sits down and immediately asks for a score reset. There are a number of reasons for this and I will list them below. Sometimes the new opponent or opponents ask why I do not reset. This post will be my new linked explanation for them. Please feel free to comment on your thoughts about score reset requests.

Why I do Not Reset The Score

1. Clearing the score clears my movie results and makes it so I can not review the last hand or other previous hands. Often after a session I like to scan through this to find boards that need discussion or that I might want to post online. I much prefer to review this than use the my hands link.

2. Please look up at the board number. I have been playing here awhile. Opponents come and go (often after 1 or 2 hands) but I stay the same. I want to be able to review my results and resetting every couple boards, when I'm going to be here for 50, is silly IMHO.

3. People discriminate in score reset requests. The vast number of requests come when I am plus 30. Last night I was minus imps for 60 boards in a row: not one reset score request. Coincidence? I don't think so.

4. It is more difficult for me to keep track of plus or minus imps with multiple resets in a session. All the newcomer has to do is set his baseline (i.e. the current imp score) and he will always know if he is plus or minus for his time at the table. i.e. if you come to my table and the score is -17.2 imps for you, take note. Later that number is your 0. If you're higher then, "Well done!" If you are not, please stay a little while more ;-).

5. It is my table. Either my partner or I are hosting it. We do not have to reset the score and, in fact, we will not. You can whine and stomp and complain, but we will not reset the score. If you have strong feelings on this, you should just go host your own table. Bye now.

What do you think? Share your view and please give any reasons of your own.

jmc

Let's play some bridge! The score be damned already.

[jillybean]

I agree and I think you may be preaching to the converted

[Trumpace]

Why I reset and score and learned to stop worrying about it:

1) Clearing score removes my movie result, but I can always see it \bridge base online\hands\trumpace. I don't need to go online.bridgebase.com for that. I don't even need to be connected to the internet.

2) If I reset score, maybe they won't leave every couple of boards and stay with me for 50 boards. I have 1) anyway to review my results.

3) Don't care if reset request is asked only when we are plus. Why does the IMP score in main bridge club matter anyway? I have reviewed the travellers for many hands and come to the conclusion that the MBC score is not a good yardstick.

4) I don't keep track of IMP score in MBC. Pretty pointless to use that as a judge of how you are playing.

5) It is my table. I am the only one who can reset the score. So if the current score bothers someone so much, why not just reset and get along...


Lets play bridge. The score be damned already.



Seriously though, I just don't understand the importance of the score...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

I dont like ressetting the score either.

IF you are the host, dont reset the score,
you have to do it, if you follow the request
fine, if you dont fine as well.
Of course the guy, who did request the resetting,
may leave, but if he leaves because of that, he
will leave for other stupid reasons as well.

One option: Write in the table description -
no score reset.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[matmat]

<rant>
newplayer: reset score please.
matmat: bid please
newplayer: reset score first
matmat: why?
newplayer: because it is not my score.
matmat: OK. score reset
newplayer: I have left to join a tournament.


MO#@$@#$ER.
there should be a button to bring back the score.

marlowe does have a point in that those that are obnoxious enough to make a big fuss about resetting the score very often make a big fuss about the tiniest of things and leave on a whim. i.e. if the score is that big of a deal to you, I don't think i want you to play at my table anyway.


BBO should have a "please leave" button.
i.e. not a boot, but an official, sanctioned way of asking someone to leave (and have that request be recorded somewhere).... I'd imagine I'd end up on a fair share of those myself

[helene_t]

We have had the discussion before, if the score could be detached from the movie history so that both could get it their way. Fred said it would be very difficult to change with the current software arcitecture, but meybe things will be different in BBO-TV?

There is an issue with robber bridge, though. The scores below the line must look the same for all four players.

[sceptic]

Some different views

1. Clearing the score clears my movie results and makes it so I can not review the last hand or other previous hands. Often after a session I like to scan through this to find boards that need discussion or that I might want to post online. I much prefer to review this than use the my hands link.

1a. You can open another link to do this and then toggle between pages (admitedly there is a delay)
1b. It is rude to study your hands when you should be playing bridge with 3 other people
1c. dont use the myhands facility use the movies button BBO provides, there are easier ways to review than my hands

2. Please look up at the board number. I have been playing here awhile. Opponents come and go (often after 1 or 2 hands) but I stay the same. I want to be able to review my results and resetting every couple boards, when I'm going to be here for 50, is silly IMHO.

2a. How can the score be meaningful when you have having people flit back and forth during a 50 hand session with pick up pards?

3. People discriminate in score reset requests. The vast number of requests come when I am plus 30. Last night I was minus imps for 60 boards in a row: not one reset score request. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3a. I find this attitude sucks, (I do not mean to be rude to you) but I seriously can't see your arguement here (see answer 2a.)

4. It is more difficult for me to keep track of plus or minus imps with multiple resets in a session. All the newcomer has to do is set his baseline (i.e. the current imp score) and he will always know if he is plus or minus for his time at the table. i.e. if you come to my table and the score is -17.2 imps for you, take note. Later that number is your 0. If you're higher then, "Well done!" If you are not, please stay a little while more ;-).

see 2a. (again reitterating what does it matter playing 50 hands with table hoppers)

5. It is my table. Either my partner or I are hosting it. We do not have to reset the score and, in fact, we will not. You can whine and stomp and complain, but we will not reset the score. If you have strong feelings on this, you should just go host your own table. Bye now.

5a. I totally agree with you, this is your perogative as a table host (I just think it is a poor attitude)

[bid_em_up]

helene_t, on Sep 26 2007, 07:45 AM, said:

There is an issue with robber bridge, though. The scores below the line must look the same for all four players.

I'm assuming robber bridge is where we steal the opponents blind?

[Rossoneri]

sceptic, on Sep 26 2007, 09:38 PM, said:

Some different views

1. Clearing the score clears my movie results and makes it so I can not review the last hand or other previous hands. Often after a session I like to scan through this to find boards that need discussion or that I might want to post online. I much prefer to review this than use the my hands link.

1a. You can open another link to do this and then toggle between pages (admitedly there is a delay)
1b. It is rude to study your hands when you should be playing bridge with 3 other people
1c. dont use the myhands facility use the movies button BBO provides, there are easier ways to review than my hands

2. Please look up at the board number. I have been playing here awhile. Opponents come and go (often after 1 or 2 hands) but I stay the same. I want to be able to review my results and resetting every couple boards, when I'm going to be here for 50, is silly IMHO.

2a. How can the score be meaningful when you have having people flit back and forth during a 50 hand session with pick up pards?

3. People discriminate in score reset requests. The vast number of requests come when I am plus 30. Last night I was minus imps for 60 boards in a row: not one reset score request. Coincidence? I don't think so.

3a. I find this attitude sucks, (I do not mean to be rude to you) but I seriously can't see your arguement here (see answer 2a.)

4. It is more difficult for me to keep track of plus or minus imps with multiple resets in a session. All the newcomer has to do is set his baseline (i.e. the current imp score) and he will always know if he is plus or minus for his time at the table. i.e. if you come to my table and the score is -17.2 imps for you, take note. Later that number is your 0. If you're higher then, "Well done!" If you are not, please stay a little while more ;-).

see 2a. (again reitterating what does it matter playing 50 hands with table hoppers)

5. It is my table. Either my partner or I are hosting it. We do not have to reset the score and, in fact, we will not. You can whine and stomp and complain, but we will not reset the score. If you have strong feelings on this, you should just go host your own table. Bye now.

5a. I totally agree with you, this is your perogative as a table host (I just think it is a poor attitude)

I could easily come up with reasons on why one shouldn't ask for a score reset in that case.

[helene_t]

P_Marlowe, on Sep 26 2007, 02:15 PM, said:

One option: Write in the table description -
no score reset.

Yes. It's obviously a matter of taste. Everyone can get it his own way. The table descriptions are there to be used.

[helene_t]

bid_em_up, on Sep 26 2007, 06:12 PM, said:

helene_t, on Sep 26 2007, 07:45 AM, said:

There is an issue with robber bridge, though. The scores below the line must look the same for all four players.

I'm assuming robber bridge is where we steal the opponents blind?

I was afraid someone would make similar jokes about the correct spelling

Bad excuse for bad spelling, I know.

[bid_em_up]

helene_t, on Sep 27 2007, 06:53 AM, said:

P_Marlowe, on Sep 26 2007, 02:15 PM, said:

One option: Write in the table description -
no score reset.

Yes. It's obviously a matter of taste. Everyone can get it his own way. The table descriptions are there to be used.

That does not help, I do in fact put it in the table description.

What do you think the first thing a new player says is?

"Reset Score Please"

Nobody reads table descriptions.

[jillybean]

bid_em_up, on Sep 27 2007, 07:06 AM, said:

Nobody reads table descriptions.

I'd like to see a 'table agreement' form pop up when a player wants to join a table. Similar to the type of pop up you get when loading software the player would need to check 'I have read, understood and agreed to the conditions' before being permitted to join the table. & the same for tournaments of course

I think the only real answer to these problems is to play solely with known opps.

[matmat]

Have you read and do you accept the table agreement?

lol

[barmar]

One reason many people don't read the table descriptions is probably because they're never given an opportunity. I'm sure most of them are using the simple "Find me a table" form, which just teleports them to some random table. They don't select the table from the list, where the descriptions are on display.

[finally17]

You asked for it Jon. Ask me to open my mouth and you get a book.

I am completely in agreement with jmc (except that point 4 just isn't right, the only way to get an accurate mid-session score is to add up your results unless all previous boards have been played 16 times). I want to be able to look at the hands I've played. I want to know my score for the session that I've chosen to care enough to sit down and host a table for. And frankly, I get bothered by the ridiculous requests people make.

Countless times I have played against 2 players where one did some stupid things, achieved some horrible results, and the other player left in frustration. That's fine, I get that. But then another player comes along to fill out the table, and the original player, the one who earned the bad results, asks for a score reset! I would understand a lot more if the new player did. But even then, this is my table and my session. Promise me you'll stick around for 10 boards and I'll reset the score just for you. But if you don't, don't plan on coming back to my table.

I can also testify to the fact that people just don't ask for resets when they come in with a positive score. It happens all the time, and if you paid attention you could testify to it as well. Last night my partner and I earned our way quickly to -25 and stayed there for a while. Four or five people came in and no one asked for a reset (duh!)...I was completely floored when about person 5 said to me "you can reset the score finally." It was a tacit acknowledgment that people just don't ask when they start with a big plus. I turned him down with the explanation that seeing my previous hands was more important to me than the score.

What's really annoying is that many many times I have been looking at the last board, the one I just finished playing, when a new player sits and asks for a reset. I don't respond right away because I'm still looking at the board, so they ask again, and then start to get snitty, or just leave. For a long time I usually responded positively to these requests, but far too often people did this, asking 2 and 3 times and rudely while I'm looking...it really put me off of honoring these requests.

There are several fallacious arguments in this thread:

1) Jumpers might stick around if I were willing to reset the score. No way. Everyone here has reset, only to have people leave after 2 or 3 boards, dozens of times. The fact is that the same attitudes lead to both: for some reason, even in the relatively anonymous environment of BridgeBase, players care what others think. They come in with a positive score and don't ask for a reset, they come in with a negative score and they do. 2-3 boards later they do something stupid and run. Jumpers jump because they don't care to take the game or its players seriously. My resetting the score isn't going to change this.

2) That's what the hand records on my computer are for! Whatever. The hand records on my computer, and online, are nice. But the MOVIE is there for instant recall. I shouldn't have to waste time navigating around the web or my c:/"bridge base online" folder to find the hands I just played. And even though I know how to do that, odds are that my partner doesn't (even on bbo we all know most people aren't computer literate), so I simply lose all ability to reference the previously played hands. Furthermore, my computer doesn't keep the traveler, and in neither situation do I get the instant update as new scores come in. The only one that does all this is the MOVIE.

And <b>Trumpace</b>, whether or not the IMP score is a good yardstick in the main bridge club or not doesn't speak at all to the point. People care about it, even though it's not any good. People still ask for score resets based (almost solely) on its sign. Jmc didn't say it was good, the most he said was that he cares to know it...over the long haul, say 50 boards, being 20 or 30 plus is still generally indicative of a decent session, and being 20 or 30 minus still generally indicative of a poor. It's certainly not so bad as to be completely irrelevant, and all jmc asked for was the ability to know that much.

[Trumpace]

finally17,

The point is: if someone asks to reset the score and it bothers you because you think you lose the information how well/badly you played, you are just fooling yourself...

If you really want to improve and judge yourself correctly, see how the play went/should have gone (alongwith a player who knows better) and not just look at the score. It is time consuming, but the right thing to do.

I would go so far to say that the MBC score is bad enough to be irrelevant.

If you are just playing for the sake of playing, being the table host, you are free to refuse to reset the score. Do you really think pointing people to a thread like this when they ask to reset the score will help?

What I said might not be exactly on topic, but I think it is relevant. You are free to ignore what I said, but I will state it again: MBC score is not a relevant yardstick and if you rely on that to judge how well you are playing, you are fooling yourself.

[matmat]

trumpace, perhaps you don't like reviewing hands when dummy, i dunno. I like to and I find it MUCH easier to do so when they are still in the movie in the bbo client than if i have to navigate through individual hands over the web or if i have to dig through my subdirectories to get it -- especially as often I like to see how other tables played it either to look at what other declarers did better or to find out how ridiculous decaring/defence led to ridiculous results elsewhere. I dunno about Jon or Aaron, but they probably feel the same way, I can usually spot the mistake I made fairly quickly, especially when I can see what others did...

finding a good player to go over the hands is all fine and dandy too, if they can spare the time, or if you have one available. good luck with that at 1 or 2 am when you're one of the few people you know who are playing. going over hands is often only useful when they are fresh in your mind, not once they have faded away.

the point that it slows the game down is ridiculous. what really slows the game down is people refusing to move, bid or budge when their request to reset the score is denied. that is close to blackmail -- i think that's obnoxious and worthy of a boot (which is often applied after a request to leave).

As to the worthiness of the score -- I agree with those that have said that it is a poor measure of the quality of bridge being played, especially as the opponents (random opponents) are often of dubious level and inaccurate self-rating. None-the-less if you sit there for 20-30-40 boards and build up a substantial + score it is probably a good indicator that you are doing something right, and if it's negative, well... gotta work on something.

also, it's been pointed out that people will ask for a reset, get one, and the skip out after one or two boards, only to get a fresh start somewhere else.
mind you, this is not a general statement, but a decent guideline: If someone sits down, that i don't know, and asks for a reset it has been my experience that that player's level of ability and table demeanor are NOT desirable at my table. i.e. those that care about scores on individual boards (rather than trends, or, at all) are generally petty, inconsiderate, often aggressive and rude and tend to result and treat the triumph in the post-mortem as a substitute for winning and a means of achieving moral high ground.

[finally17]

I never said you lose the information. I said it's a lot harder to access in its other forms, takes longer, is less timely (these are different concepts), etc etc etc...

If I really want to improve, talking over every hand over with an expert would be nice, but let's be honest, that's rarely possible. Ignoring what is available to me would be foolish.

And if you really think the score is completely irrelevant, well then frankly you have no clue. It's not great, it's probably not even good, but it is not at all devoid of information. But I don't rely on the score, I don't give a damn about the score. That would be why I refused the offer to reset when I was -25. I care about the fact that others seem to care about the score, it's a very poor reflection on them and I'd prefer not to have them as my opponents, but if I must, I will do so on my terms, and not reset the MOVIE, because that I care about.

[Trumpace]

From the tone of the posts it seems like I have offended people.

Sorry, there was no intention of that.

I agree that looking at the movie is convenient, but unless you are reasonably advanced (perhaps like matmat/aaron) a quick analysis will do you no good. Normally as dummy I tend to kibitz only declarer and try to follow the play and practise counting etc.

For an advanced player, it is likely that by that time a new person has come and has started asking for a score reset, you are probably done with your analysis of previous hands.

If you are an average BBO player, a hasty movie review will not help you. You might think it does, but on many hands, you will miss the point entirely (especially on declarer play/defense). About the score in MBC, if you are reasonably advanced, after 20-30 boards, your IMP score in MBC will almost always be positive, but you probably knew that already. If you are average, it could be that you are doing well, but it could also be the your opponents/other tables have been idiots. Even then, you should go over the hand in detail to spot your errors, which I guarantee, will be plenty.

I have found that even though my score in MBC over 20-30 boards is +40, there are too many mistakes that have I made during the session and I have only been able to spot many of them after going over the hands in detail. If you don't think you make that many mistakes or that you spot them that easily, good for you, but if you are an average BBO player (unlike matmat/aaron) I seriously doubt it.

I agree that people who ask for a score reset tend to be rude etc. I am not arguing that. These people usually are bad players, and make ridiculous comments on plays, ask you to play faster etc. It is fine if you refuse to reset score, I am not disputing that. All I am saying is that don't rely on the score too much, which your refusal to reset score seems to imply. You have other reasons to refuse a score reset, like going over the movie, I agree, but all I am saying is that it might not be doing you as much good as you are thinking it does. By you, I mean an average BBO player.

Anyway, this conversation seems pointless to me. To each his own...