[DrTodd13]

The Story

ADHD and autism rates 2.5x higher in vaccinated children than in unvaccinated children.

[Gerben42]

After reading the article it seems the statistics seem significant, even taking into account that less mental disorders were diagnosed.

So the question is: What the bleep do we know about human fysiology?

Answer: Not as much as we think.

Some "achievements of modern medicine" have unknown dark sides. My favorite example is that early born kids are MUCH more likely to have psychological disorders later on than kids that did their full 9 months, which in turn raises the question if we are actually doing the right thing when we manage to keep extremely early births alive.

I mean carrying a baby is a heavy burden for a woman especially in the last months, and if it would be "the same" to carry the baby for only 7 or 8 months, no doubt evolution would have favoured that instead.

[inquiry]

No it doesn't.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...cgi?artid=26561

http://jama.highwire...ract/285/9/1183

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi...05.01425.x/abs/

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlere...gi?artid=544455

Vaccines and the changing epidemiology of autism.
Wakefield is a paid hack.

[Fluffy]

Link doesn't work for me.

At first I'd say that unvaccinated children rate to be on the third world, wich means Autists are not there.

I don't know what ADHD is.

[han]

Thanks for posting Ben.

[FrancesHinden]

The news story does not state that vaccines cause ADHD and autism. It states there is a correlation between them.

How about this: taking your child to the doctor increases autism.

I bet that's true. I bet if you never take your child to the doctor between birth and puberty, they won't be diagnosed with either autism or HDHD. They won't be vaccinated either.

[hrothgar]

I spent a fair amount of time reading up on this subject a year or so back. A number of my friends kids were nearing the point where they needed to get their kids inoculated against MMR. My own nephew was about to to receive the same vaccination. For (obvious) reasons, this subject ended up getting discussed a fair amount.

At that point in time, I couldn't find any serious evidence that mercury based vaccines had a causal relationship to the development of autism. There is lots of anecdotal evidence. There are also large numbers of parents who are quite convinced that there is a link. However, no one was able to to muster any kind of compelling argument.

For what its worth, the New York Times had a editorial on this subject this last Sunday. Their position (pretty much) summarizes the conventional wisdom:

http://www.nytimes.c...ion/24sun2.html

[pbleighton]

Someone I know well did a lot of professional research on this - he is an attorney with graduate-level scientific training, who does technical research for a law firm.

His personal and professional conclusion, expressed quite forcefully to me, is that there is no good evidence whatsoever. The folks who do the *research* with the pr0-autism results are the same nutcakes who think fluoridation of drinking water is a Communist plot.

Peter

[Gerben42]

This just shows that statistics are such a slippery slope. It seems Frances' explanation is the correct one.

Unfortunately statistically misleading results are continuously published (see my previous post, the correlation LOOKS significant and of course there is one, but as we found out for a completely different reason).

The problem is, publishing this is not illegal, nor is writing about it in a newspaper.

[han]

Another less friendly but possible explanation is that if someone WANTS to obtain a certain conclusion, it is usually not so hard to find data that supports that conclusion.

[Al_U_Card]

Back in the 80's I had my kids receive all of the infantile innoculations (to the age of 6 months or so. From then on, I felt that their own immune systems would do just fine.

When a meningitis "epidemic fear" required all students at their elementary school to be innoculated, I refused. When told that it was compulsory, I replied that more people died from the innoculations than the disease and that it was not even required let alone obligatory. When they said that my kids would be unable to attend the school if they did not receive the vaccine, I replied that they would be there the next day for classes and if they were in any way impeded or admonished then I would have to take legal action.

That was the last I ever heard about that.

[Al_U_Card]

Hannie, on Jun 27 2007, 07:26 AM, said:

Another less friendly but possible explanation is that if someone WANTS to obtain a certain conclusion, it is usually not so hard to find data that supports that conclusion.

"Liars, damn liars and statistics" Mark Twain

[Gerben42]

Fear is the mindkiller... I think you did the right thing not to give in to the school pressure.

[hotShot]

Lets assume for a moment that vaccines would double the autism and ADHD.

But what I would like to know is, how many children died from illnesses or took permanent damage because they did not get a vaccine. Did they forgot to mention that?

If e.g. 0.1% of the kids with vaccines risk autism and ADHD, but 10% will die from getting a disease, what would you choose?

Years ago I saw an interesting statistic with almost perfect correlation.
I showed the correlation of the human birthrate and the population of storks. Guess what conclusion could be drawn ......

[Gerben42]

Quote

Guess what conclusion could be drawn ......

That humans and storks are in a predator-prey relationship? And since we're not hunting them... <starts yelling and running around in circles panicking>

[Al_U_Card]

hotShot, on Jun 27 2007, 08:16 AM, said:

Lets assume for a moment that vaccines would double the autism and ADHD.

But what I would like to know is, how many children died from illnesses or took permanent damage because they did not get a vaccine. Did they forgot to mention that?

If e.g. 0.1% of the kids with vaccines risk autism and ADHD, but 10% will die from getting a disease, what would you choose?

Years ago I saw an interesting statistic with almost perfect correlation.
I showed the correlation of the human birthrate and the population of storks. Guess what conclusion could be drawn ......

The same sort of thing with the inverse relationship between whale populations and the Dow Jones...r= .995

Correlation is NOT causality. Things MAY be interrelated or coincidental.

[Al_U_Card]

Gerben42, on Jun 27 2007, 07:49 AM, said:

Fear is the mindkiller... I think you did the right thing not to give in to the school pressure.

Like for the birth of my second son. During the intense labor of my wife, a "practitioner" came in to strap on the fetal heart monitor to her abdomen. I had heard that this "technique" served no useful purpose and could distract the mother to be. The standard fetal stethoscope was just as good. When I stopped the nurse from proceeding she declared that not using it might result in missing a critical condition of the baby. When I pointed out the regular stethoscope lying on the counter, she turned around and left in a huff. Never returning, my only conclusion was that she was more interested in the machine than in the patient(s).

[Al_U_Card]

hotShot, on Jun 27 2007, 08:16 AM, said:

Lets assume for a moment that vaccines would double the autism and ADHD.

But what I would like to know is, how many children died from illnesses or took permanent damage because they did not get a vaccine. Did they forgot to mention that?

If e.g. 0.1% of the kids with vaccines risk autism and ADHD, but 10% will die from getting a disease, what would you choose?

Years ago I saw an interesting statistic with almost perfect correlation.
I showed the correlation of the human birthrate and the population of storks. Guess what conclusion could be drawn ......

Modern medicine IS pretty miraculous. The pharmacopia etc. is however, a two-edged sword. Kids nowadays all suffer from otitis and get inner ear stents etc. Asthma is on the increase as is obesity etc. Sometimes systemic changes are the result of adaptive failure. High fructose corn syrup anyone? A pox on their heads.

[hotShot]

Gerben42, on Jun 27 2007, 03:24 PM, said:

Quote

Guess what conclusion could be drawn ......

That humans and storks are in a predator-prey relationship? And since we're not hunting them... <starts yelling and running around in circles panicking>

Don't panik and read:

"Paediatric and Perinatal Epidemiologie", 2004 (18); 88-92


On the other hand i've seen Hitchcock's "Birds", maybe you're right.

[FrancesHinden]

hotShot, on Jun 27 2007, 02:16 PM, said:

Lets assume for a moment that vaccines would double the autism and ADHD.

But what I would like to know is, how many children died from illnesses or took permanent damage because they did not get a vaccine. Did they forgot to mention that?

If e.g. 0.1% of the kids with vaccines risk autism and ADHD, but 10% will die from getting a disease, what would you choose?

This is partly why this is all so difficult.
As long as everyone else's child is vaccinated, yours won't get the disease because there's no-one to catch it from.

So from a purely selfish point of view you should persaude everyone else to get their children vaccinated, and possibly take an increased risk of other problems, while your child gets the benefit of community immunity with no downside.