[kenberg]

If you raised to 2H on very modest holdings, and he bid 4 and was in a contract that was close enough so that it was double dummy makable, I don't see this as evidence that the 1H bid was a mistake. You might have had more for your raise, or he might have found the right line, or, as happened in the hand I cited, the defense might have slipped. One hand can't prove a theory, but this appears to me to support the choice of 1H. Of course there will be a guess as to what the level should be, and if you regularly raise on not much maybe he should have allowed for that, but you played in the right strain in a contract that might have made, even though you had few values to contribute. Why is this bad? Well, because it went down, I suppose. But I can't see this as a great failure of bidding.

Ken

[Al_U_Card]

I am old-fashioned (unfortunately) and until I start playing Ruben advances et al., for me dbl and bid your suit shows 18+ and the points can be ANYWHERE. There are so many ways to show the various hands including 3S to ask pard for a stopper to play in 3NT. My super-overcalls are never more than 17 so at least that can be a reference point. I also don't subscribe to pard jumping to 4S on anything, ever. He must start with a q-bid first. This allows me to deny the 4414 hand that I initially supposedly promised.

[inquiry]

kenberg, on Jun 20 2006, 08:17 AM, said:

But I can't see this as a great failure of bidding.

Well said. The hand is:

Scoring: MP

---

With North having a light opener, with 3S and 4+diamonds. Between them they hold ♠AKQ, ♥J, ♦QJ, ♣A for 17 hcp, give EAST say "12" that leaves five for WEST. With the informaton from the bidding and these cards, I would WANT to be in 4H's. We might discover South with KQ of spades for example, wouldn' t that make the play easier?

There is a number of reasonable lines, including try to elope with 5 trumps in hand (ruffing 4S, including one with the ACE or king), 2D, 2C and 2 diamond ruffs in dummy (one with the Queen). That line would be 11 tricks. Of course you may not have the entries for all of that, but if they play 2 rounds of spades early, you are probably home after you knock out the club ace. Another line is the double finesse in diamonds through the diamond bidder (the opening lead might give this to you).

Still a comment on the bidding... EAST's hand is probably not a 2♥ bid, unless you play some conventional bid to show a normal raise to 2H, as I mentioned earlier. The Negative Double, however, makes this raise a better option, as partner will have heard the bidding and know you can not have that much (when he is strong). So I don't fault the raise even if not playing some other bid as the normal constructive heart raise.

[sfbp]

Well, the hand was worse than that

Scoring: MP

---

My point is I felt "safe" as advancer making a courtesy raise over the Negdbl (which I certainly would not over a pass), knowing that overcaller should not have more than about 17 HCP, and nearly always less. My bid is known to be weak and I would not expect a raise.

I still believe the "pard might raise to 4♠" argument to be a chimera. To us, 4♠ is not a strong bid, it is a preempt, and as noted by Al_U_Card, all strong responding hands can start with a cue-bid to give partner a chance to disavow his double somewhat.

It actually took partner and me more than 10 minutes to see the double-dummy line too. I thought as I put the dummy down, he'd better appreciate my ♣Q

[whereagles]

Well, that's less of a reason to bid 2♥. But still, one must be aware that on this bidding overcaller is likely to have 16-17 hcp and might very well go berserk after the raise.

[inquiry]

sfbp, on Jun 20 2006, 09:18 AM, said:

Well, the hand was worse than that

Scoring: MP

---

My point is I felt "safe" as advancer making a courtesy raise over the Negdbl (which I certainly would not over a pass), knowing that overcaller should not have more than about 17 HCP, and nearly always less. My bid is known to be weak and I would not expect a raise.

"Safe" is not the word I would use here. You could say it was the "lawful" bid if you were a LOTT believer, but lets look at what might go wrong.

1) You might encourage a heart lead on defense. While a heart lead could be right, it is only right when partner what to lead one... your bid will make him lead them when it is wrong. This is matchpoint after all, so strike one for the "safe bid"

2) If you and your partner are LAWFUL bidders, your raise showing three might get him to compete to three hearts when he holds six (and of course, your less than 17 hcp). Playing in 3H on a maximum of 18 hcp and likley less VULNERABLE versus non-vul at Matchpoint is no my idea of fun. Even if they should not double, you are likely down two at least on most hands (given partners range is something to 16, he will often have less than 16).

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

4) Finally, you risk partner not being in on the joke and bidding more, as happened in this case.

To be honest with you, I play a "nuasance" raise to 2H with 2D being a normal raise, and I would not even make the definatively weak raise to 2H here.. I mean why? At this vul you can not outbid them, and you certainly dont want to encourage a heart lead or another heart bid.

[Al_U_Card]

I agree that I would refrain from showing this kind of "support". When the auction stalled at 2S that would be a decision point. If Pard happens to ask me again, I would be pleased to have the cheapest H bid available to describe my smelly piece of cheese.

[sfbp]

inquiry, on Jun 20 2006, 08:47 AM, said:

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

uh, RHO made a negative double, (oops, edit) so he probably has four spades.

[kenberg]

sfbp, on Jun 20 2006, 09:18 AM, said:

Well, the hand was worse than that

Scoring: MP

---

My point is I felt "safe" as advancer making a courtesy raise over the Negdbl (which I certainly would not over a pass), knowing that overcaller should not have more than about 17 HCP, and nearly always less. My bid is known to be weak and I would not expect a raise.

I still believe the "pard might raise to 4♠" argument to be a chimera. To us, 4♠ is not a strong bid, it is a preempt, and as noted by Al_U_Card, all strong responding hands can start with a cue-bid to give partner a chance to disavow his double somewhat.

It actually took partner and me more than 10 minutes to see the double-dummy line too. I thought as I put the dummy down, he'd better appreciate my ♣Q

If you and partner are sufficiently atuned that he knows you might bid 2H on this hand then he can bid 3D asking if you are serious. The purpose of 2H with that hand escapes me. In competitive auctions, partner must know how far to push and when to consider a double. If 2H shows something like 0-10, and lacks the distribution for a rescue pull of a doomed double, I think it makes it tough. No doubt it is a matter of style (what isn't?) but waiting until you actually have something before you bid is not the craziest idea in the world.

[inquiry]

sfbp, on Jun 20 2006, 10:55 AM, said:

inquiry, on Jun 20 2006, 08:47 AM, said:

3) Even 2H risk down two, and risk being doubled given the vulnerability. Imagine your RHO short in spades and strong with hearts. A double here toast you.

uh, RHO made a negative double, and I am short in spades.

Doesnt seem too likely to me......

Seems like I misunderstand what you mean by you are short in spades (you did say YOU raised to 2H), you have five of them...., I wonder why you consider that short? When i said RHO being short in spade and with strong with hearts I meant opener (RHO to the original problem hand)....

[sfbp]

kenberg, on Jun 20 2006, 08:56 AM, said:

If you and partner are sufficiently atuned that he knows you might bid 2H on this hand then he can bid 3D asking if you are serious. The purpose of 2H with that hand escapes me. In competitive auctions, partner must know how far to push and when to consider a double. If 2H shows something like 0-10, and lacks the distribution for a rescue pull of a doomed double, I think it makes it tough. No doubt it is a matter of style (what isn't?) <snip>

More like 0-8.

Research shows (shhh don't tell mom!) that XX on any 9 count is pretty profitable.

The point of the post was not to highlight my superaggressive (and I'm sure the tone of some commentators indicate they thought it was suicidal) 2♥ bid, but to question whether ANY partnership should have to cope with 7-19 overcalls.

Into a pint pot putteth ye not a quart (ancient wisdom inscribed on a church in Baltimore dated 1692)

[jdonn]

What research is that?
I won't tell her, I promise.

[sfbp]

Geez, why would I discuss BRBR with you after your previous disbelief of the most basic 2+2=4 Josh?

Better to keep it to myself and make a profit.

[jdonn]

Ohhhh bridgebrowser research.

I agree with your decision, better not to share it with me. I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer

Enjoy your profit.

[whereagles]

2♥ on the actual hand hand certainly is acceptable (though I prefer pass), but pard must be on the same wavelength. Otherwise it's better to just pass.

[han]

luke warm, on Jun 19 2006, 06:40 PM, said:

i'd double then bid hearts... for the 1♥ bidders, what do you bid with this hand?

♠  J4
♥  AK832 
♦  T532 
♣  K3

I'd bid 1♥. I would even bid 1♥ with xx KQJxx xxxx xx, shocking isn't it?

1) xx KQJxx xxxx xx

2) J AKxxx AK10x KJx

both hands bid 1♥.

[sfbp]

jdonn, on Jun 20 2006, 09:29 AM, said:

I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer

Ah, but if you eat creme brulee you'll never get one

Hainanese Chicken Rice.... no wonder

[jdonn]

sfbp, on Jun 20 2006, 12:16 PM, said:

jdonn, on Jun 20 2006, 09:29 AM, said:

I am travelling soon and I prefer not to leave with an ulcer

Ah, but if you eat creme brulee you'll never get one

Hainanese Chicken Rice.... no wonder

I'm with you...this would not be my first choice

http://image.blog.livedoor.jp/braniff1967/.../2/f2c6ebe9.jpg

[inquiry]

It is not clear if trying to make fun of bridgebrowser is a useful exercise. There are things it can do, and things it can not do. Evaluate over millions of hands which is better with 9 hcp redouble, pass or bid after (1m)-1n-(DBL)-?

Is something it is easly suited for. Of course, you might want to subdivide on other criteria. For instance, support for partners overcall, stopper versus no stopper in 1m, good suit of your own, etc. The BridgeBrowser analysis of the "Pearson points" theory is very solid and sound I think.

Having said that, I have to admit, I would have to look long and hard at redouble with 9 to convince myself it was "a clear winner", but this stetches the point. I think the bidding theory is all wrong. It is wrong to insist on dobule with all 17+ hands and it is wrong to raise 1H to 2H VUL at matchpoint on this dreck.

[sfbp]

inquiry, on Jun 20 2006, 10:31 AM, said:

I think the bidding theory is all wrong. It is wrong to insist on dobule with all 17+ hands and it is wrong to raise 1H to 2H VUL at matchpoint on this dreck.

I am unrepentant. I don't think my 2 point raise is any worse than pard's 19 point overcall. They both stretch the parameters by about 2HCP.

I mean what happens if I pass? They play in 1S or 1NT down 1, undoubled and even doubled then that's only 100. And what is partner to do now?

The concession by Hannie that he would bid 1H on both extremes tells me that there's no way to bid the strong hand after a pass of the negdbl. I mean now HE's the one sticking his neck out to bid again, even with 19 points.

Bidding is all about fit and shape (points schmoints), and you can't have it both ways. Either 1♥ is right and 2♥ is right, or they are both wrong. Of course I am bidding 1♠ over double, but over X,1♠ (by RHO) i will peacefully pass (and wait for pard to get into trouble).

Funny thing is: 1H seems to be the only way to get us to our game-making fit. Very odd.

But I would still rather (at matchpoints) partner passed 2♥ and made 4 than bid 4♥ and made 2. I think the agreements I assumed were reasonable, and my bid within the range of those agreements (just). I see pard's point, but I rather WISH he had doubled, not because it gets us a better score (it clearly doesnt) but for my sanity.