[hrothgar]

sfbp, on Jun 23 2006, 06:31 PM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jun 23 2006, 07:51 AM, said:

Not as furious as I would have been over the 2♥ raise, unless partner is also aware of your tendencies to raise on this type of hand.  And since I havent seen it mentioned elsewhere, if partner is aware of this tendency, I certainly hope you are alerting the 2♥ raise.

So: LHO opp opens 2♣, and partner calls a natural 2♥.

You want me to alert this too, I suppose, as being very weak?

You do understand that basic purpose of an alert structure, right?
Alerts are intended to warn the opponents that a bid has an unexpected meaning.

It seems pretty clear that a majority of the players contributing to this thread do not believe that you hand was suitable for a 2♥ advance, not do they consider a 2♥ bid that can systemically incorporate this hand type to be standard.

[bid_em_up]

sfbp, on Jun 23 2006, 10:31 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jun 23 2006, 07:51 AM, said:

Not as furious as I would have been over the 2♥ raise, unless partner is also aware of your tendencies to raise on this type of hand.  And since I havent seen it mentioned elsewhere, if partner is aware of this tendency, I certainly hope you are alerting the 2♥ raise.

So: LHO opp opens 2♣, and partner calls a natural 2♥.

You want me to alert this too, I suppose, as being very weak?

I wasnt even going to bother to answer this since it appears to be just another attempt at misdirecting the subject, but....

Let me put it this way.

If your partnership routinely (as in almost always) raises an overcall of 1♥ to 2♥ on this hand type, or if your partnership routinely (again, almost always) overcalls a strong 2♣ on x Jxxxxx xx Kxxx (or whatever other weak hand you choose) then yes, I believe you should be alerting the bids. You know partner is liable or prone to be weak in these situations, it is an undisclosed partnership understanding. The opponents are not aware of any such understanding. Partner could well hold x AKxxxx xx Kxxx over the 2♣ opener and fully have his bid, even if only lead directional. As such, your partnership tendencies to raise or overcall on nothing in these situations are alertable.

Note the difference between routinely (almost always), or occasionally or whenever you feel like it, or every now and then. If partner has no reason to believe (or suspect) on this board that your raise will be anything other than a standard 2♥ raise, then no, its not alertable.....but from what has been written in this thread, I would find it hard to believe that your partner is not aware of your tendency to do this. You have attempted to defend the 2♥ bid just a little too strongly to convince me that is an action you have not taken before, or one that you do not routinely make.

But, I could be mistaken.

[pclayton]

sfbp, on Jun 23 2006, 07:31 AM, said:

bid_em_up, on Jun 23 2006, 07:51 AM, said:

Not as furious as I would have been over the 2♥ raise, unless partner is also aware of your tendencies to raise on this type of hand.  And since I havent seen it mentioned elsewhere, if partner is aware of this tendency, I certainly hope you are alerting the 2♥ raise.

So: LHO opp opens 2♣, and partner calls a natural 2♥.

You want me to alert this too, I suppose, as being very weak?

If the partnership has the understanding that direct action over a strong 1♣ or strong 2♣ is weak, and delayed action is strong, then the bids are alertable.

This is a very commonplace arrangement, but it still is alertable.

[pclayton]

Every so often we get someone on BBF that makes a far-out bid that happens to work out. The poster tries to defend his a) brilliancy, b ) ability to innovate, c) knack of knowing something that the masses do not (pick 3).

Generally it takes about 5 pages to convince the poster that such an action was lucky, or worked out for reasons other than brilliancy. The tone starts as gentle, turns to ugly and finally flames erupt. Wayne used to be the master of these, but he has grown a brain in place of an ego.

Of course theres no resemblance to the comments above and the actual thread.

[sfbp]

pclayton, on Jun 23 2006, 01:44 PM, said:

If the partnership has the understanding that direct action over a strong 1♣ or strong 2♣ is weak, and delayed action is strong, then the bids are alertable.

Phil, i think the point I was trying to make is "how many points are there left over after someone opens 2♣?"

Mind you, if I had a PP for everyone who had knowingly overcalled my precision 1♣ opener without their partner alerting that they may have nothing, I'd be rich.

I don't believe I've ever heard such an alert being given over 2♣ (strong).

Would you, for instance feel obliged to alert when partner overcalls 4♠ on a normal opener with "pd may have a strong hand"?

I'd be happy to discuss this with you in another thread, perhaps, since I sincerely hope someone shuts this one down after the nastiness just posted.

[sfbp]

pclayton, on Jun 23 2006, 03:08 PM, said:

Every so often we get someone on BBF that makes a far-out bid that happens to work out. The poster tries to defend his a) brilliancy, b ) ability to innovate, c) knack of knowing something that the masses do not (pick 3).

Generally it takes about 5 pages to convince the poster that such an action was lucky, or worked out for reasons other than brilliancy. The tone starts as gentle, turns to ugly and finally flames erupt. Wayne used to be the master of these, but he has grown a brain in place of an ego.

Of course theres no resemblance to the comments above and the actual thread.

Btw how many times do I have to point out that I never needed or wanted to post my own action on the hand as evidence of anything? It worked out, but it didn't work out. What could be fairer than that......

But the flame merchants couldn't see anything other than their own single-minded determination to find a mistake made by the poster. I don't care what they think of my scummy 2♥ bid, but to attack me personally when I wouldn't repent of it is merely childish.

[inquiry]

I have temporarily locked this thread and deleted two post from it since the discussion has gone from the original question of the first post to something that phil has called ugly, I agree.

We will reopen it in a day or two should something else need to be added, but please do not START a new thread to continue the arguement.

I will get moderator priveldge and add, that if the overcaller knew his partner would raise this weak he would never have jumped to 4H, so while bidding 2H might be common for the advancer here, the evidence suggest that they had no partnership agreement about it.

Having said that, my view is if your overcall is limited to 15 hcp, you should alert that. If any action you take by advancer other than redouble is limited to 8 or less hcp, you need to alert that. Having said that 2H here was natural and meant to play, so other than alerting less than 8hcp, that seems to be all that would be required.. since it could have 8 it isn't always weak.

On sunday, you can explain why i am totally wrong.

Ben