[pbleighton]

None Vul, MPs

1H-P-4H-P-P-Dbl

Penalty or takeout?

I had a 4135 10 count, nice spades. Our card says double through 4H is takeout.
I doubled, pd passed, she thought it was penalty.

The culprit was lack of an agreement (and excessive friskiness on my part, perhaps - pepperoni and bacon pizza before bridge possibly not a good idea ), but what should the agreement be?
Does vulnerability and/or scoring matter?

Peter

[mike777]

maybe x over 1h in the first place?

Not sure how you can pass and now have a pure penalty x in any event on this auction, was partner void in hearts?

[blackshoe]

Quote

Our card says double through 4H is takeout.

IMO, what's on the card refers to doubles in direct seat, not all doubles, anywhere. You didn't double 1♥ so you don't, apparently, have a takeout double at that level. Yet in the passout seat, after a weak raise to game by responder, you did double. I would have expected it to be penalty, as well. If you had a hand which might have doubled 1♥ but didn't because it was flawed somehow (not ideal distribution, lack of high cards, too many trumps) I don't see how the auction now being at the four level makes a takeout double any less flawed.

If this hand has a penalty double of 1♥, it would pass because double would be takeout, hoping partner might make a reopening (takeout) double, which can be passed.

"Nice spades" might also consider a 1♠ overcall. Yes, I know it's a four card suit. Read Mike Lawrence's book on overcalls - though I think he'd opt for double on the hand as described.

[pbleighton]

""Nice spades" might also consider a 1♠ overcall. Yes, I know it's a four card suit. Read Mike Lawrence's book on overcalls - though I think he'd opt for double on the hand as described. "

Not with this partner. With my primary partner, certainly.

"I don't see how the auction now being at the four level makes a takeout double any less flawed."

Because the opps had a ten card fit (but they didn't - see below), and I had a spicy pizza.

"maybe x over 1h in the first place?"

Not quite strong enough, though I certainly wished I had

"Not sure how you can pass and now have a pure penalty x in any event on this auction, was partner void in hearts?"

No, I had a singleton heart.

The actual hand was weird - the opps were experienced but aren't too good - 4H was a balanced 13 with 3 card support, and they missed a slam.

Peter

[jdonn]

Obvious double of 1♥ as far as I'm concerned. 4135 ten count with good spades? I would consider a nine count fitting that description a normal bare minimum, I wouldn't even call it light.

Reese has actually written up the double you made as takeout on a very weak 4054 hand or so, but I have talked to good players about this in the past and they all agree that is ridiculous (times have a-changed) and it must be penalty. Partner can't infer from his trump length since people often make somewhat speculative penalty doubles when short in trumps, partially in hope of inducing a misguess.

[hatchett]

Quote

Partner can't infer from his trump length since people often make somewhat speculative penalty doubles when short in trumps, partially in hope of inducing a misguess

You hardly likely to make a speculative penalty double in this sequence with short trumps and a hand that wasn't strong enough to double 1♥!

I would say that the standard treatment for this is penalty. I think you could play it as two way if you must, but like all 2 ways doubles you might end up defending the odd 12 card fit.

[luke warm]

i'd have taken the x as penalty because there was no double of 1♥

[Double !]

interesting discussion

i would have interpreted the double as a very shapely hand that didn't have sufficient strength to have doubled 1H initially based on partnership agreement. i kind of thought that this is rather standard albeit admittedly a risky bid, perhaps old-fashioned. Little reason, especially at matchpoints, to play the double as penalty. If the opps are not making,and neither you nor your cho could bid, chances are you are getting a reasonable score if the opps are way overboard.

just one opinion from a bidding dinosaur

DHL

[HeartA]

luke warm, on Jun 16 2006, 06:22 PM, said:

i'd have taken the x as penalty because there was no double of 1♥

ditto.

[hotShot]

Our agreement is that dbl is t/o, if it's the first bid you make.
So i would see this as penalty.

[P_Marlowe]

Penalty.

You had the chance to make a takeout dbl,
but you did not make one.
Which was certainly fine, but now dbl cant be
takeout anymore, why enter the biddng at the
4 level, when you did not dare to enter on the
one level?


With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

pbleighton, on Jun 16 2006, 05:04 PM, said:

<snip>
The actual hand was weird - the opps were experienced but aren't too good - 4H was a balanced 13 with 3 card support, and they missed a slam.
<snip>

That is an interesting point as well, is 4H weak or could
it be any strength (e.g. in the context of a limited 1H opening).

I think against a limited 1H opening, entering the bidding at
the 4 level is an interesting proposition.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[mcphee]

I am not fond of 4 card o/c when short in the opened suit so much. Seems to me what can often happen is you get punched and lose control, not to mention parnter could make a weak-ish raise to the 2 level where you have no shot. With the right shape 10 counts are t/o dbles.

I think the dble of 4H should suggest modest values and a save. It seems this hand type would come up more often that a penalty double type that was not able to act over 1H opening.

[cherdano]

I think this is a penalty double, but whatever it means I wouldn't expect myself to double in this situation once in the next 3 years.

[Free]

Passing first and double on the same suit afterwards is penalty (otherwise you would've doubled in the first round). It's quite a basic rule: "if it can't be takeout, then it's penalty". This hand may be borderline takeout, but you probably could bid 1♠ if you didn't like Dbl.

[helene_t]

There was a related problem in Bridge World some time ago. What does

pass-(1♥)-pass-(3♥)
pass-(4♥)-pass-(pass)
4♠*

mean?

The way to solve the puzzle is this: Partner made an impossible bid so he must have an otherwise unbidable hand. A four-card spades plus a six-card in a minor suit. Amazingly, two pannel members guessed it.

After having read that puzzle, I would assume that Peter had a three-suited hand including hearts and just short of a 1NT overcall. 4405 with bad spades would be ideal.

[Chamaco]

I do not like the reasoning: "Iwas too light to double for takeout at level 1, so I double for takeout at the 4 level (although in the balancing seat)"

If anything, any action at high level (at least 3+ level for me) should promise MORE strength rather than less strength than any action at the 1 level.

Hence, if I were discussing with my partner, I would strongly insist on the agreement that this double cannot possibly be for takeout.

[goodwintr]

A similar double, 2H - P - 4H - P ; P - Dbl., just occurred in Verona. In Brazil, it appears, the double of 4H after passing over 2H is for takeout. The doubler had a weakish 4-0-5-4 hand, not good enough to double 2H for takeout. The result was minus 590.

TLGoodwin