[Badmonster]

Today another frind from BIL asked me (not expecting me to have the answer, I don't think) about how you know when a double is penalty, or take out, or negative. I told her, I think we have to abandon penalty x below game. But... then I never know if when someone asks my opinion if it's worth anything. And this is a question I've struggled with.

Negative is easy. You have an agreement that on auctions where p opens and opps overcall up to level x your x is negative. You know going in.

And there are many situations where x's are just obviously t/o.

But let's say that opps are red, and they're bidding (maybe only in one hand) a suit, and you have 47 of them, and you know they're going down a bizillion tricks, how do you get to penalty x?

[onoway]

I wasn't thinking so much of penalty doubles as generally with pickup pards these seldom seem to kick in below game (or when opps are obviously stopping). What I find confusing is how to tell the difference between support, negative and takeout doubles...they all seem to promise slightly different things..how is a declarer to know?

[awm]

Here are the basic rules that Elianna and I use:

If the last bid by the opponents was a suit at or below 2♠, then double is normally takeout. The only exceptions are:

(1) Our side opened with 1NT or a weak two bid (we play penalty doubles there).
(2) We have already agreed a suit (1♥-P-2♥-2♠-X is penalty).
(3) We have previously made a bid which shows "desire to penalize" normally by redoubling a takeout double or doubling an artificial call earlier in the auction.

If the last bid by the opponents was a suit between 3♣ and 4♥, then double is often penalty. The exceptions are:

(1) If I have never made a bid other than pass or takeout double, then double is takeout (3♥-X or 1♣-3♥-X or 1♥-X-3♥-P-P-X takeout). We make an exception to this if partner has previously made a takeout double (we don't play responsive doubles at the 3-level).
(2) If partner has never made a bid other than pass and I have bid at most one suit, then double is takeout (1♣-3♥-P-P-X).
(3) In some cases where "penalty" doesn't make sense double is general values (1♠-2♥-P-P-3♣-3♥-P-P-X for example, where opener has a black two-suiter and can't have a heart stack); however these doubles are still normally left in unless partner has a lot of shape or a fit that hasn't been shown.

If the last bid by the opponents was a suit 4♠ or above, then double is penalty-oriented. In many auctions this will not be a "trump stack" and simply shows general values. It's possible for partner to pull one of these doubles if holding a very distributional (offensive-oriented) hand that has not yet been shown by the auction thus far.

Doubles of notrumps and artificial bids are a little different of course.

[Badmonster]

Wow. That's clearer and more comprehensive than I'd even hoped for. I think I'll bookmark this and discuss with regular p's.

[hotShot]

The usual way is to define rules:

If we have found a fit, any dbl is penalty.
Over 2/3♠ dbl is penalty.

The are lots of other agreements, you could make.

[keylime]

Deb,

Write down Adam's rules and use them carte blanche. They are the most concise set I've seen.

My thoughts are reduced to this..."when in doubt, take it out"....unless obvious!

[mike777]

"1) Our side opened with 1NT or a weak two bid (we play penalty doubles there).
(2) We have already agreed a suit (1♥-P-2♥-2♠-X is penalty)."

Double is the most confusing bid there is in bridge. Good luck.

Example, many play if you open a strong nt and the opp bid...then our x may be takeout, cards or penalty even over bids at the opp 2 level...confusing!

1nt=2s=x?
1nt=2s=p=p
x=?
1nt=p=p=2s
x=?
1nt=p=p=2s
p=p=x=?

1h=p=2h=2s
p=p=x=?


This was from last night:
1d=x=1nt=p
p=2c=2d=p
p=x=p=?

Your bid with: xxx...KTxx...Txx..Q98

I bid 2H...but 4H makes

Yes, confusing but good luck in sorting it out!

[awm]

Hmm there is one more rule I seem to have forgotten.

If partner has made a takeout double and opponents then bid a suit implied by that double, then double is penalty. So for example 1♣-X-1♠-X is penalty. This is basically a "psych protection" double.

Also the first exception (1) should read: "If partner opened a strong 1NT or a weak two bid, double is penalty."

[awm]

So for Mike's examples:

1NT-2♠-X = penalty, exception (1) under two-level doubles.

1NT-P-P-2♠-X = takeout; two-level and partner wasn't the 1NT bidder

1NT-2♠-P-P-X = takeout; two-level and partner wasn't the 1NT bidder

Obviously it's possible to play takeout doubles after partner opens 1NT (eliminating part of exception 1). This may even be a better treatment than penalty doubles. However, it's not standard really and it's not what Eli and play.

1♦-X-1NT-P
P - 2♣ - 2♦ - P
P - X

Takeout, the bid is below 2♠ and none of the exceptions apply.

[kgr]

awm, on Jun 1 2006, 10:17 PM, said:

(2) We have already agreed a suit (1♥-P-2♥-2♠-X is penalty).

I have about the same rules with my regular partner.
Only if oops bid the suit under our suit then double is invite.
e.g.: 1♥-(2♦)-2♥-(3♦); now X is invite for 4♥ and 3♥ is competitive.

[Double !]

Excellent discussion topic.

Just one favor.

Next time please give the thread a different title. I became a little concerned at first when I first saw the title of this thread.

Thanks: :-)

DHL


p.s.: Yes, I am aware of Mike Lawrence's book with same title.

[mike777]

"1h=p=2h=2s
p=p=x=?"

If I understand AWM rules this is penalty..not takeout or cards or values?

[Badmonster]

Double !, on Jun 1 2006, 07:37 PM, said:

Excellent discussion topic.

Just one favor.

Next time please give the thread a different title. I became a little concerned at first when I first saw the title of this thread.

Thanks: :-)

DHL


p.s.: Yes, I am aware of Mike Lawrence's book with same title.

what about: X X X.

Though that too could give rise to misunderstandings.

[Badmonster]

mike777, on Jun 1 2006, 07:56 PM, said:

"1h=p=2h=2s
p=p=x=?"

If I understand AWM rules this is penalty..not takeout or cards or values?

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but I think it's penalty becase why woudn't you raise or cue to compete or invite?

[mike777]

Badmonster, on Jun 1 2006, 08:40 PM, said:

mike777, on Jun 1 2006, 07:56 PM, said:

"1h=p=2h=2s
p=p=x=?"

If I understand AWM rules this is penalty..not takeout or cards or values?

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but I think it's penalty becase why woudn't you raise or cue to compete or invite?

You may be 100% correct.. but this is a typical hand that I would find very confusing at Mp esp.

I note obvious for you...very confusing for me....

[awm]

The "standard" agreement is that if we've already decided where to play the hand, then doubles should be penalty. After all, why double for takeout instead of just competing one more level?

So 1♥-P-2♥-2♠-X is penalty, as is 1♥-P-2♥-3♦-X and so forth.

Now it's certainly possible to play that this double shows shortness in the opponents suit, suggesting bidding on unless partner prefers to defend (kind of the reverse of normal meaning). It's also possible to play that such a double is a "game try" whereas bidding three of our suit is just competitive (especially useful in the second auction where there's no room for game tries).

There's nothing wrong with either of these agreements, but they are agreements and not something I'd assume to be standard. They're also not part of Elianna and my agreements about doubles, which are designed to be close to standard and relatively simple to state.

[luke warm]

ron klinger uses x as penalty when it's:

E-to Expose a psych: (1H) x (1S) x
N-after a No trump bid: (1D) p (1NT) x
W-after a Weak 2 or higher preempt by partner: 2S (3D) x
R-after a Redouble
A-after an Artificial bid (michaels, etc)
P-after a Previous penalty pass: 1C (1H) p (p) x (p) p (1S) x
S-Subsequent double of a pass of the same suit: 1D (1H) p (p) 1S (2H) x

[jdonn]

Even knowing nothing about Ron Klinger's methods, I absolutely positively refuse to believe he would play 1♦ p 1NT DBL as penalty. Can this be verified somewhere? If it is true I will be flabbergasted.

[luke warm]

he may have changed his mind, but yes this was his recommendation from his book 'better bridge with a better memory' ... he uses the made-up word ENWRAPS as a way to remember when the x is penalty, but he gives the option of removing one or more (if, as you do, you disagree) and making up your own... for example, removing the 'N' might give you WASPER for

W-after a Weak 2
A-after an Artificial bid
S-Subsequent x
P-previous penalty Pass
E-Expose a psych
R-after Redouble

[jdonn]

I still don't believe he intended that auction. Are you sure he didn't mean notrump OPENING bids?