[andych]

Which team will win?

Barcelona
Arsenal
AC Milan
Villarreal

[joshs]

I think the ball they use is too round to be football.

[nickf]

joshs, on Apr 21 2006, 04:53 PM, said:

I think the ball they use is too round to be football.

Well strictly speaking Josh it's not round at all. It probably has about 200 edges and who knows how many corner ....er bits.

[Impact]

Nick,

sorry but you are out of date - the new ball has less stitching and fewer panels and indeed instead of the octagonal (?) panels, the latest has fewer patches...apparently the smoother surfaces increase accuracy....

but on the original issue, Barcelona has the class but arguably requires more than that paticularly as I think they are away to AC inthe second leg with only a 1 goal cushion...

Arsenal has the same advantage against Villareal - and Arsenal is the classier of those two sides but home leg is worth a lot...

To coin a phrase, it could all be determined by the bounce of the ball - which is where I came in!

[the saint]

It will be a Barcelona/Arsenal final judging by the first legs of the Semis (I think Arsenal have got enough to go to Villareal).

I have a sneaky suspicion the Gooners will do it. If Barcelona have a weakness it is at the back and Henry's pace is simply staggering. Barcelona aren't a team that kick you around - traditionally Arsenal's problem is when they come up against physical sides. And at the back, Kolo Toure is probably the best Centre-Half around at the moment. He might just be able to get a handle on Ronaldinho - he certainly has the pace to recover.

I know I said on another thread I wasn't going to be serious - but this is football. And no smarmy comments from across the Atlantic on shapes of balls please!

We invented it, we called it football.

[Gerben42]

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Which team will win?

Who cares

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Well strictly speaking Josh it's not round at all. It probably has about 200 edges and who knows how many corner ....er bits.

It's a truncated icosahedron and as such has 32 faces, 90 edges and 60 vertices:

Truncated Icosahedron - Wikipedia

Then the air pressure from inside makes it a bit rounder.

American football sounds like something that COULD be interesting if the game would not stop for some break every 10 seconds.

[Codo]

yes FOOTBALL Rules and I would like Arsenal to win, because I like their coach, their goal keeper and Sir Henry.
But Barcelona had been the most impressive team this year, so I will bet on them.
And they play a wonderful game, probably the nicest to watch in this world.

[the saint]

Gerben42, on Apr 21 2006, 10:41 AM, said:

American football sounds like something that COULD be interesting if the game would not stop for some break every 10 seconds.

We call it Rugby. It involves fitness because all the fat blokes don't have to keep stopping for a breather.

[Echognome]

the saint, on Apr 21 2006, 11:23 AM, said:

We call it Rugby. It involves fitness because all the fat blokes don't have to keep stopping for a breather.

Interesting comment given that one of your best players (Martin Johnson) used to do his fitness training with the San Francisco 49ers.

If you don't think those guys in the NFL are fit, then you are bonkers.

Next thing you know, you're going to get started on the wearing kit thing. I can only mention that in England, in order to play American Football, you have to have an ambulance on the side of the pitch. I do not believe the same is true for Rugby. You tell me which one is tougher.

[the saint]

Ok then.

1) An American football scrimmage will exert nowhere near the same pressure as a Rugby scrummage. 1 on 1 vs 8 on eight through a prop-forwards shoulders - do the maths.

2) American football is a monotasking game. All rugby players require handling skills, running skills, kicking skills, tackling skills, rucking skills, mauling skills, and some require lineout skills too.

3) Rugby has passages of play that last considerably longer than those of American football. Forwards in particulat are required to run, tackle and ruck continuously during this period of time. No rest for the wicked.

4) Since Rugby became fully professional a decade ago, the speed, physicality and impact has gone up exponentially. Martin Johnson would have done his training in the time period before this. The injury rate is now very much higher than ten years ago with the increased demands on players. Rugby Sevens is another level of CV fitness altogether. Your American Football guys wouldn't have a hope.

5) Ambulances? Never play against a Pacific Island side....

6) And when it comes to passion, hearing the Welsh crowd in full cry at the Milennium Stadium in Cardiff takes some beating...

7) No American Football teams do a Haka. Nuff said.

[mr1303]

I completely agree with Alan.

The Bristol University bridge team briefly considered doing a Haka before our bridge matches in order to psyche out the opposition. Unfortunately at the committee meeting I was sadly out voted.

[david_c]

Rugby makes no sense. I was forced to play it for five years at school but I never had any idea what the rules were. As far as I can make out, the referees you see on television award penalties according to some strictly random process which has nothing to do with what's actually going on.

[the saint]

The Haka

Proper.

[Echognome]

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1) An American football scrimmage will exert nowhere near the same pressure as a Rugby scrummage. 1 on 1 vs 8 on eight through a prop-forwards shoulders - do the maths.

Our university has both a rugby team and an American football team. The rugby team once challenge the American football team to a scrum. It wasn't even close. The rugby team got destroyed. Of course American football players are specialised, so it isn't a fair comparison. But neither are most of your criticisms.

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2) American football is a monotasking game. All rugby players require handling skills, running skills, kicking skills, tackling skills, rucking skills, mauling skills, and some require lineout skills too.

It is at the highest levels. At lower levels you have to play multiple positions. Quarterbacks have to do most of the skills you mention and it is not like Rugby doesn't have specialised positions either.

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3) Rugby has passages of play that last considerably longer than those of American football. Forwards in particulat are required to run, tackle and ruck continuously during this period of time. No rest for the wicked.

Agreed. However, it's a very different game. Rugby requires more cardio, American football requires more strength and power. It's like comparing a 100 meter sprint champion with a 10k runner and saying the 10k runner is 'better' because they run for longer. Who cares?

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4) Since Rugby became fully professional a decade ago, the speed, physicality and impact has gone up exponentially. Martin Johnson would have done his training in the time period before this. The injury rate is now very much higher than ten years ago with the increased demands on players. Rugby Sevens is another level of CV fitness altogether. Your American Football guys wouldn't have a hope.

Of course not! They didn't train to play rugby. But I can just imagine if Rugby was the national sport in the states and Barry Sanders played. That would have been fun to watch. I know the professionalism is new in the UK, but it still doesn't measure up to the training regimes that the NFL players have to go through. I somehow don't hear about 40 yard sprint times of rugby players...

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5) Ambulances? Never play against a Pacific Island side....

Interestingly enough, there are plenty of good Pacific Island players in the NFL.

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6) And when it comes to passion, hearing the Welsh crowd in full cry at the Milennium Stadium in Cardiff takes some beating...

Fill 60,000 seats at a university level rugby match and come back to talk to me. If you want passion watch an army-navy game, a cal-stanford game, a michigan-ohio state game, even a harvard-yale game. Rivalry week is absolutely crazy. When it comes to the pro level, you'll find plenty of passion too. Watch a Redskins-Cowboys game.

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7) No American Football teams do a Haka. Nuff said.

The haka is cool admittedly. But why are you taking credit for something they do in New Zealand?

[the saint]

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Our university has both a rugby team and an American football team. The rugby team once challenge the American football team to a scrum. It wasn't even close. The rugby team got destroyed. Of course American football players are specialised, so it isn't a fair comparison. But neither are most of your criticisms.

However, I suspect the resources generally better athletes at an American Uni played 'Football' hence not exactly realistic. Pro vs Pro would be interesting, however I suspect that a top prop forward would have an American football player on the ground in seconds under better technique. Then again, you might complain that is down to training. Nonetheless, the question was which is tougher? Since a scrum exerts more pressure it must be tougher on the player.

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It is at the highest levels. At lower levels you have to play multiple positions. Quarterbacks have to do most of the skills you mention and it is not like Rugby doesn't have specialised positions either.

Rugby has specialisation, but not like American football where a player comes on a kicks the ball and then runs off again. The rugby specialists like hookers have to do all the other stuff too. As for which player kicks, virtually all backs will during a game. The place kicker can be any player. For a while in the case of Australia, their second-row forward Jon Eales did it. I wonder when a tight end last did that?

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Agreed. However, it's a very different game. Rugby requires more cardio, American football requires more strength and power. It's like comparing a 100 meter sprint champion with a 10k runner and saying the 10k runner is 'better' because they run for longer. Who cares

I can cite cases of wingers being Olympic standard sprinters (as in the case of former Welsh player Nigel Walker). That enough speed? Now we have established Rugby equals your benchmark on that...

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Fill 60,000 seats at a university level rugby match and come back to talk to me. If you want passion watch an army-navy game, a cal-stanford game, a michigan-ohio state game, even a harvard-yale game. Rivalry week is absolutely crazy. When it comes to the pro level, you'll find plenty of passion too. Watch a Redskins-Cowboys game.

They do - at the Varsity match between Oxford and Cambridge. I was in Alabama the other year at the time Alabama and Auburn were going to go head to head. It was THE big event of the year. But, as much as I dislike praising the Welsh, they couldn't compare to the Dragons.

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The haka is cool admittedly. But why are you taking credit for something they do in New Zealand?

I'm not taking credit for something from New Zealand, but one extra thing that happens in Rugby that doesn't get done in American Football. I could have tried to find a Samoan, a Fijian or a Tongan war dance too I suppose. Its a shame I couldn't get hold of the English forward standing 3 inches from the face of the biggest All-Black staring him down from a few years ago. Was quite a sight!

[Echognome]

Just a quick reply:

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However, I suspect the resources generally better athletes at an American Uni played 'Football' hence not exactly realistic.

I would buy your argument if I weren't a lecturer in the UK.

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Pro vs Pro would be interesting, however I suspect that a top prop forward would have an American football player on the ground in seconds under better technique.

Since this is something we will never ever be able to test, I'm sure we can all make this claim. If we could, I would wager on some of the middle linebackers in the NFL, or perhaps a D lineman.

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Then again, you might complain that is down to training. Nonetheless, the question was which is tougher? Since a scrum exerts more pressure it must be tougher on the player.

Exerts more pressure than what? I find the main difference is that in rugby you wear little padding and in American football you tackle through the other player. However, I haven't played both sports. We have loads of players on the uni american football team (which I coach) that have though. They can probably tell you better.

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Rugby has specialisation, but not like American football where a player comes on a kicks the ball and then runs off again. The rugby specialists like hookers have to do all the other stuff too. As for which player kicks, virtually all backs will during a game. The place kicker can be any player. For a while in the case of Australia, their second-row forward Jon Eales did it. I wonder when a tight end last did that?

We had a quarterback who was punter (I'm sure those familiar will remember Danny White). We also have had players that play both offense and defense. There have also been players that have been multiple sports superstars (Jim Brown also played lacrosse, Bo Jackson and Deion Sanders baseball) yada yada yada. I'm not sure why this is a big deal. Some sports have more specialisation than others. Are you claiming that the decathlete is a better athlete than the sprinter?

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I can cite cases of wingers being Olympic standard sprinters (as in the case of former Welsh player Nigel Walker). That enough speed? Now we have established Rugby equals your benchmark on that...

I think you missed my point here entirely. My point was that the training and fitness regime is unbelievable. The amount of money and time they spend on physical training is amazing. But that's what the players are paid for.

[the saint]

Ok, I have the definitive proof.

The Jackass (Hi, I'm Johnny Knoxville....) crew always looked for the most masochistic, hardest way to punish themselves.

They went training with a rugby team...

[Echognome]

Laugh. They also had an episode where they were returning punts against a college American football team.

The jury is still out...