[Echognome]

Socialism, Capitalism, and Communism are all theoretical concepts as well as practical ones. We call Denmark socialist as we call America capitalist and yet each country has aspects of the other. Compare apples with apples and be practical please.

As for the reason it works well, have you ever thought that it works well because you have a rich country? If you don't have the money, then it is quite difficult providing for all those that cannot provide for themselves. I have no objection to the goal, just to alluding that it is implementable everywhere.

There is simply a tradeoff between equality and incentives. (If everyone earned the same income no matter what, what incentive would there be to work?)

[Walddk]

Echognome, on Apr 4 2006, 03:16 PM, said:

We call Denmark socialist

Do you? If so, you are mistaken. We have had a Liberal/Conservative administration for more than 5 years now, and I am not sure they are thrilled if you call them socialists. The population won't be either.

The Social Democratic Party (the closest you get to socialism in Denmark) is now the 3rd largest. Not so many years ago they were the #1 party, by a margin.

Roland

[Echognome]

My apologies Roland, Claus, and any other Danes. I have to admit that my knowledge of Denmark runs older than 5 years.

However, Denmark is certainly more socialist than the U.S.

[csdenmark]

Echognome, on Apr 4 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

My apologies Roland, Claus, and any other Danes.  I have to admit that my knowledge of Denmark runs older than 5 years.

However, Denmark is certainly more socialist than the U.S.

Wrong again Echognome. We are not but we are closer to live up to standards of human rights, maybe thats what you mean.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

Declaration on the Right to Development

[Walddk]

csdenmark, on Apr 4 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Echognome, on Apr 4 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

My apologies Roland, Claus, and any other Danes.  I have to admit that my knowledge of Denmark runs older than 5 years.

However, Denmark is certainly more socialist than the U.S.

Wrong again Roland. We are not but we are closer to live up to standards of human rights, maybe thats what you mean.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

Declaration on the Right to Development

If you would care to read my post, you will see that I said that we are not, so how

Wrong again Roland. We are not ....

can make any sense is beyond my comprehension. I did not write one word about human rights; I merely told the viewers that we have had a Liberal/Conservative government for more than 5 years - and that has nothing to do with socialism (thank goodness).

Roland

[csdenmark]

Walddk, on Apr 4 2006, 04:50 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Apr 4 2006, 03:34 PM, said:

Echognome, on Apr 4 2006, 04:25 PM, said:

My apologies Roland, Claus, and any other Danes.  I have to admit that my knowledge of Denmark runs older than 5 years.

However, Denmark is certainly more socialist than the U.S.

Wrong again Roland. We are not but we are closer to live up to standards of human rights, maybe thats what you mean.

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights

International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights

Declaration on the Right to Development

If you would care to read my post, you will see that I said that we are not, so how

Wrong again Roland. We are not ....

can make any sense is beyond my comprehension. I did not write one word about human rights; I merely told the viewers that we have had a Liberal/Conservative government for more than 5 years - and that has nothing to do with socialism (thank goodness).

Roland

Sorry Roland - I read Echognome as Roland. I was wrong sorry.

I know quite well we share values here. In other areas like bridge we dont share values. But Roland was not meant Roland Wald. It was a simple misreading by me.
I responded to Echognome.

[Badmonster]

At first I thought csdenmark was just saying Denmark is great and the US sucks nyneh nyneh nyneh. But that would just be rude and silly, so I think either he would like us to all move to Denmark to live the good life and play bridge with him, or he's offering to come here and help fix all our problems and make the US a true utopia where everyone is well paid, well fed and well rested, even people that drive taxis and work in restaurants. Thank you csdenmark.

[csdenmark]

mike777, on Apr 4 2006, 03:25 PM, said:

Perhaps some day there will be more New Danes than Old Danes? Keep in mind in America we always have New Americans coming, Millions and Millions! Just think if Denmark did?

If does seem wierd that will all those countries right next door to each other that many people from one country do not move to another and make babies in the new country! I know for a fact that if Denmark or Sweden or many of those countries were next door to America alot of us would be multi cultural ( if we were single that is).

Btw in Denmark if a  2 usa citizens comes to Denmark or anyone for that matter and has a baby in the hospital is that baby Danish? If you and your wife come to USA your baby born here is a USA citizen! We find it confusing that childern born in many countries are not automatic citizens of that country no matter if the parents are legal or not!

I like to try to clear up a few more of your questions Mike. It is always important to know. Inspiration for improvements need to come from somewhere.

Perhaps some day there will be more New Danes than Old Danes?
I have tried to explain the reason why we work with integration as an alternative to segregation. If we succeed we will have managed to overcome this problem else your perspective will not be the end of the danish nation but certainly the end of danish identity.

I know for a fact that if Denmark or Sweden or many of those countries were next door to America alot of us would be multi cultural ( if we were single that is).
I am not sure what you mean here. Denmark is for danes. If you want to live here, interested in learning our values with intentions to adopt them - then you are welcome - else not.

We find it confusing that childern born in many countries are not automatic citizens of that country no matter if the parents are legal or not
I am not completely sure of our rules. I know for sure that Denmark dont allow multiple citizenship. All coming here must choose.

As I remember it is so that all children born in Denmark are granted danish citizenship. Anytime they can choose citizenship of their parents - then they are no longer danes.

[han]

Echognome, on Apr 4 2006, 08:28 AM, said:

Oh wow. I just saw this thread and there are many, many issues. Let me give you my point of view as an economist and throw in some personal opinions. I see many people stating as "fact" what is actually their opinion.

Let's start with an easy one, the tax added on to the price to give a final price. I have lived in Europe and have lived in the States. I do agree that it is more convenient as a consumer to see the final price of a good including tax. The reason that tax is not included in the price in the states is that sellers want you to see when they are increasing the price, not when the government is raising their costs through taxation. Since tax is fairly transparent anyway, I don't think the sellers have much of an argument.

As per tipping, it is simply a matter of incentives. Claus may think of it as begging, but I do not think anyone in the states thinks of their servers as beggars. In fact, one can make quite a good living as a waiter, bartender, taxi driver, etc. However, since a person's wages are directly tied to the tips they make, the service that is offered is generally at a much higher level in the U.S. than in Europe. I say this last statement as my personal opinion. The service in Europe simply sucks compared to that in the U.S.

A bit was discussed about minimum wage. I can tell you that this is, in itself, quite a large discussion. I can tell you that the higher the minimum wage, then the higher the minimum standard of living and the more unemployed people you have. Everything is a tradeoff.

There was also a bit of a political economy discussion about socialism versus capitalism. Again, a huge discussion. Can we just agree that socialism in a small, rich country like Denmark or Sweden might work fantastic, whereas in a large country like the U.S. not so well?

Matt, I am not willing to accept some of these statements you make as facts. It seems like you are making the same mistakes that you say others are making.

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Apr 7 2006, 12:30 AM, said:

Matt, I am not willing to accept some of these statements you make as facts. It seems like you are making the same mistakes that you say others are making.

You'll have to be specific because I lost you. When I write "I think" it means an opinion. Other than that, not sure what you find controversial. Happy to debate it.

[luke warm]

csdenmark, on Apr 4 2006, 12:30 PM, said:

Denmark is for danes. If you want to live here, interested in learning our values with intentions to adopt them - then you are welcome - else not.

wow, what a concept... how exactly does that work and how exactly is it implemented? inquiring minds want to know

[asdfg2k]

I find it surprising that nobody has noted so far that the word "tip" is an acronym for "to improve performance."

As Matt has pointed out, anybody who has spent a fair amount of time having services performed for them by those who are incented and a fair amount of time having services performed for them by those who are not can appreciate the difference.

The question is how different societies have implemented (and/or changed) their systems of incentives. In the US the service industries that have been incented by gratuties will fight tooth and nail to retain those incentive systems, because, quite simply, they work well for the service provider. If they didn't, then there would be a substantial movement to have them replaced. In this thread, both concepts have been mentioned.

Sceptic ever so poetically noted that if everybody stopped tipping, the system of relying on gratuities for a living wage would collapse and the practice of taxing workers on a theoretical level of tips would exit along with the system.

Claus mentioned that the unions were in favor of replacing the system in Denmark, so the system was replaced. Why? I don't know, but I can speculate that the reason was that the system was not working well for the service providers. If it was working well, and it was replaced anyway, I would be surprised.

It is a fascinating conundrum, sort of like the age old saw: Who came first, the chicken or the egg? If those that leave gratuities do so, in general, in a manner that is more generous than a rigid system would generate, then the service providers would need to be fools to reject that system. At the very least, economically foolish. Can it then be said that if the service providers have rejected the system based on gratuities the patrons, in general, left gratuities that were not so generous? That is, can it be said that, in general, the patrons of establishments in societies where tipping is considered normal are, in fact, more generous than their counterparts in parts of the world where tipping is abnormal? I think that sociologically speaking, it would be hard to refute that conclusion. Certainly it is possible that factors other than pure economics are at work here. And Claus mentions one: to use a derogatory term to describe a portion of one's earnings is a powerful disincentive to continuing that system, as I'm sure it disincents the level of the gratuity.

Fascinating, actually.

With all that aside, as a consumer, I can tell you that I dramatically prefer services rendered by those who are incented with gratuities.

By the way, Rob F mentioned the fact that it was hard to get the check when he wanted to leave a restaurant in Europe. There are many things which are just culturally different between the US and Europe. This is one of them. In Europe the waiter is considered rude if he presents the check before it is requested. In the US, the exact opposite is true. In the US, a waiter is considered rude if the check is not brought within a very short time after it has been confirmed that the ordering is at an end. This has in Europe, not illogically, resulted in a restaurant, no matter how crowded, just not bothering the people who are finished ordering. They are left to enjoy their meal. This elongates the time that people spend occupying the table. Guess what happens? Right. The wait staff has more tables to wait on, per waiter, than they otherwise would have. This makes them even busier and makes it even more difficult to flag them down to get your check. The proper response is to understand the culture and to plan on telling your waiter when you should expect your check. Do so before you finish ordering or, at the latest, when your last coffee has been delivered to the table. Don't blame the wait staff for the system!

In the end, Arend has it right: When in Rome.

[han]

Echognome wrote:

You'll have to be specific because I lost you. When I write "I think" it means an opinion. Other than that, not sure what you find controversial. Happy to debate it

I didn't want to write a long post because I basically agree with all you wrote Matt (as usual). But because of the main point of your post, I couldn't help myself but react .

But I'll write down a couple of quotes that I'm not willing to accept as facts. I don't mean that I disagree, but that it is not clear to me that what you say is 100% known. I'll try not to take your words out of context.


The reason that tax is not included in the price in the states is that sellers want you to see when they are increasing the price, not when the government is raising their costs through taxation.

Is this really the reason? Perhaps it is more a matter of tradition, or is it rather because Americans tend to dislike taxes. A fourth option is that the shopkeepers want to make their articles look as cheap as possible. I know that you know much more about this subject than I do, and perhaps you are right and this is an established fact.

A bit was discussed about minimum wage. I can tell you that this is, in itself, quite a large discussion. I can tell you that the higher the minimum wage, then the higher the minimum standard of living and the more unemployed people you have. Everything is a tradeoff.


As you say yourself, this is a complicated issue. Employment rate is influenced by many different issues, and this is one of them. I think you make it seem simpler than it is in this quote.

There was also a bit of a political economy discussion about socialism versus capitalism. Again, a huge discussion. Can we just agree that socialism in a small, rich country like Denmark or Sweden might work fantastic, whereas in a large country like the U.S. not so well?

Of course, the Danes were quick to point out that Denmark is not a socialist country. Even if the socialist party was still the largest (and ruling) party in Denmark, that would not make Denmark a socialist country imo. The laws of a country like denmark have been created over a very long period, and do not change immediately as the ruling party changes.

Although I think I agree with you that a strong social network is more likely to be succesful in a small country, once again I am not willing to conceed this as a fact. Have there been any countries the size of the US that have had a stable democratic government and are "socialist"? (Perhaps we shouldn't use this term. I think what you meant is a capitalism-based economy with a much stronger social network than the US. I'm sure that you can formulate this much better than I can)

I don't think that there ever was such a country, so perhaps we shouldn't agree so easily.

You see what you did Matt? You made me write a far-too-long post about things I know nothing about! You should just ignore my foolish comments and not ask for clarifications.

[mike777]

"The reason that tax is not included in the price in the states is that sellers want you to see when they are increasing the price, not when the government is raising their costs through taxation.

Is this really the reason? Perhaps it is more a matter of tradition, or is it rather because Americans tend to dislike taxes. A fourth option is that the shopkeepers want to make their articles look as cheap as possible. I know that you know much more about this subject than I do, and perhaps you are right and this is an established fact."


1) We want to make the price of the product clear from the tax on the product. Why?
2) If the product is too high priced we will stay home or buy from another company.
3) If the tax is too high we will not buy and stay home or move to a lower tax country, county, city, village, etc. Only the very poor who cannot leave will be left and the very rich can move very fast.
4) If you combine the price then confusion reigns and we are not sure if we can blame the company or the country for the high price.
5) Yes!!!!!! shopkeepers want to make the article look as cheap as possible and YES!!!! Americans hate taxes......but so do BEATLES (See TAXMAN SONG) for those that are young.
6) Yes Americans hate Socalism and et. all but we want more for our family from goverment, yes this is conflicting and confusing . See 50-50 split in politics for further info.

[csdenmark]

There are several reasons why the system was stopped in Denmark. The most important is education. For waiters it is something like this we have:

50% skilled persons
25% youngsters, students
25% unskilled

We think that waiters must be able to serve well, to advise of healthy food, food from different countries, correct wine etc. You may say this is the upper end of service concept. Yes - Denmark is a high wage country unable to compete for anything in low wage area.

For taxi drivers not so much education but they have tests and area licenses.

The stop had also something to do with fight of black economy. As I mentioned earlier these areas are those where most crime are nourised so I think more countries than Denmark ought to do something serious to get rid of it. Whether a waiter bow a bit deeper to you is of little importance.

I have tried to raise the question why those in favour of tipping seems not to be ready to discuss the principles in general within the whole service sector. Service is an important issue everywhere: Police, service helpers, public servants, train-staff, postal service etc. We have no tipping system for those either. Have you?

[Sigi_BC84]

Hannie, on Apr 10 2006, 05:31 AM, said:

Have there been any countries the size of the US that have had a stable democratic government and are "socialist"? (Perhaps we shouldn't use this term. I think what you meant is a capitalism-based economy with a much stronger social network than the US. I'm sure that you can formulate this much better than I can)

I think the proper term for this is "social market economy" -- unfortunately I'm not so sure anymore if it's a viable concept (financially).

--Sigi

[pigpenz]

uday, on Mar 31 2006, 06:34 PM, said:

I almost responded in ire to csdenmark, but I'll assume we're being trolled instead.

Two demerits to whoever started this contention

ooops...Rain started....csdenmark only responded.

Lots of times i would rather tip the sommelier(spelling?) for a fine choice of a wine than the waiter who serves the food....at least I have my priorities right

[asdfg2k]

Claus, there is a pretty big difference between servers and the other service professions you mentioned. A large majority of those who go out to eat do so with the intention of enjoying themselves, not just procuring sustenance. Not so when one asks a county clerk for a form, or even a policeman for directions. Hence, it is usually desirable as part of the experience to have a server that is pleasant and attentive. The gratuity system is tailor-made to reward those who excel at providing a pleasant and an enjoyable experience for the customer.

Without it, you end up with a general ratcheting down of friendliness and a general lessening of enjoyment. Hardly something that *I* would choose, if given the choice.

You keep implying that the server position is one that requires professionalism. I'd give up professionalism in a heartbeat to replace it with joy and enthusiasm. I've experienced both and I can tell you that my own experience is far more enjoyable with the latter than the former.

[csdenmark]

asdfg2k, on Apr 10 2006, 05:47 PM, said:

Claus, there is a pretty big difference between servers and the other service professions you mentioned.  A large majority of those who go out to eat do so with the intention of enjoying themselves, not just procuring sustenance.  Not so when one asks a county clerk for a form, or even a policeman for directions.  Hence, it is usually desirable as part of the experience to have a server that is pleasant and attentive.  The gratuity system is tailor-made to reward those who excel at providing a pleasant and an enjoyable experience for the customer.

Without it, you end up with a general ratcheting down of friendliness and a general lessening of enjoyment.  Hardly something that *I* would choose, if given the choice. 

You keep implying that the server position is one that requires professionalism.  I'd give up professionalism in a heartbeat to replace it with joy and enthusiasm.  I've experienced both and I can tell you that my own experience is far more enjoyable with the latter than the former.

hmmmm ...... you tend to prove my initial statement correct!

[Echognome]

Hannie, on Apr 10 2006, 04:31 AM, said:

You see what you did Matt? You made me write a far-too-long post about things I know nothing about! You should just ignore my foolish comments and not ask for clarifications.

Nah, I probably state things that are not "fact" but rather "opinion" or my understanding of why things the way they are.

I guess I could have given full disclosure by prefacing with "the way I understand things..."