[Gerben42]

Quote

On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter?
10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law.

The point is that why if you have to pay 11,50 DKR anyway, why is it listed on the price list as 10,00 DKR? If I were a tourist (and I would be when in Denmark) I'd be very annoyed by not seeing advance the price that something will cost ME.

If the price list says: 11,50 DKR, service included, everything is clear.

[csdenmark]

Gerben42, on Apr 2 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

Quote

On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter?
10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law.

The point is that why if you have to pay 11,50 DKR anyway, why is it listed on the price list as 10,00 DKR? If I were a tourist (and I would be when in Denmark) I'd be very annoyed by not seeing advance the price that something will cost ME.

If the price list says: 11,50 DKR, service included, everything is clear.

So it is now. Everywhere price is now 11,50 as it was before.

Before:

List price..............10,00
Forced tips.............1,50(15%)
----------------------------
Customer price.....11,50
Volunteer tip.........??????
----------------------------
Total....................11,50 + ???


Now:
List price..............11,50
----------------------------
Customer price....11,50


I think this is the same scheme in all societies with a public sector handling transferrings between generations. Customers and visitors to a country certainly don't know the structure behind.

[Badmonster]

In most cases (for large parties and some luxury services a 15 or 20 percent gratutity is included and appears on the bill) tipping in the US is not required by law, just by conscience.

[mink]

We have to distinguish 3 type of tipping systems:

1. No tipping or only voluntary tipps for outstanding service. Wages are the same like in other comparable areas of the economy.

2. Tips are voluntary but needed by the waitors as their wages are not a fair payment for their work, and they could not make a living without the tips.

3. Tips are required the customer cannot avoid them, and the waitor can take legal actions if the customer refuses to pay.


Type 1 and 3 is pretty much the same: The waitor gets money for his work, and he is entitled for this money.

The problematic type is 2. Legally, a customer signs 2 contracts when entering a restaurant: One with the restaurant owner about providing dishes and drinks, and one with the waiter about the transportation of the food. While the prices for the restaurant are set by the owner and payment of these prices can be legally enforced, the waiter has to hope for the goodwill of the guests: they can pay the usual rate, or more if they liked the service, or less - maybe even nothing - if they disliked the service. The problematical part is the last one: Nobody expects the customers of a restaurant judge the service objectively. The customer can use what kind of criteria he likes to judge the waitor's performance, and no matter how unjust the judgement is, the waitor has no right to get a payment for his work. In my view, depending on the mood of the customers (and his ability to calcualte 15% or whatever the usual rate is) is much worse than being a beggar: If a beggar is not paid by somebody who passes by, he has not lost anything, as he did not work, but the waitor works for the customer and trusted to get payed for it, and then maybe gets nothing, though he did his work properly.

This is much the same like you write an individual computer program for somebody, test it, it works and meets its specification, you deliver it to the customer, but he says "I do not like the way it was coded, so I will not pay for it". Nevertheless, he keeps and uses it. It is just ridiculous, and I cannot believe that anybody defends such a system.

Karl

[rbforster]

The advantage of "normally" tipping to the customer is that there's a larger portion of the serviceperson's wage riding on providing good service to you during your current visit. This means that the serviceperson will try to be prompt, courteous, etc, and will correspondingly get their expected 15-20% tip. As long as everyone understands that 15% is expected for decent service, there's no problem.

The big advantage is that when the serviceperson is feeling lazy, annoyed, etc, as we all do at times, in the US they have a significant incentive to not allow these feelings to interfere with the service they provide lest they get poor tips. If their 15% tip is required and included in the bill, you will get poor service and still be obligated to pay full price for it. The feedback loop for poor service under this model is very slow and indirect, and in many European countries I imagine it would be quite difficult to get fired for providing mediocre service.

I spent a year or two on and off all over Europe and I found the waiter/waitress service in particular was considerably worse than in the US. It was hard to get the bill when I was ready to leave, etc. This was in "nicer" restuarants, not McDonalds.

[Mr. Dodgy]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2006, 09:42 AM, said:

In the UK, waitresses and other industries staff are now taxed on expected tips and perks, so by not tipping, I am actually helping them not pay so much tax in the future (dam, I am so good to people it makes me want to throw up)

LOL

[Badmonster]

mink, on Apr 2 2006, 07:31 PM, said:

This is much the same like you write an individual computer program for somebody, test it, it works and meets its specification, you deliver it to the customer, but he says "I do not like the way it was coded, so I will not pay for it". Nevertheless, he keeps and uses it. It is just ridiculous, and I cannot believe that anybody defends such a system.

Karl

I'm not defending the system. But since it -is- the system I'm advocating tipping the waiters and waitresses depending on those tips.

[csdenmark]

The later contributions here looks much more realistic to me than the earlier ones. Those working under such conditions are not those to blame and to suffer from low wages. So right to tip of course.

Tips are mostly connected to restaurants and taxi's. Two areas very much problematic for a society. It is here we have problems with crime. Prostitution, drugs and black economy are the most common problems. Low wages are an incitament to make money from alternative activities.

What is good service? They wear clothes in colours you like? Or maybe no clothes at all? They speak your language? They don't steal your credit card number? Or maybe only your beer has a temperature suiting you?

You want to tip the fire-brigade to do their job? You want to tip service helpers for helping old persons? You want to tip the policeman catching the thief? You tip Bill Gates for no bugs in software? You tip shop keeper selling you shoes in correct size?

Certainly not. The tip system is basically unacceptable. Those I have noticed in favour of such are pleased to have a cheap and easy option for charity.

[mink]

Badmonster, on Apr 3 2006, 07:27 AM, said:

I'm not defending the system. But since it -is- the system I'm advocating tipping the waiters and waitresses depending on those tips.

Of course, if I was visiting e.g. the United States, I would give tips, too, and not cheat waitors just because I do not like the tipping system.

However, I have decided never to travel to the US, for other reasons.

Karl

[Sigi_BC84]

nickf, on Apr 1 2006, 11:19 PM, said:

I can't believe some of the alleged egalitarian crap espoused by some of the correspondents to this thread. I think uday was right, this can't be anything but trolling.

Now that Claus finally manages to display an opinion of his with which one I'm actually ready to agree you accuse him of trolling. Sigh.

Quote

To hold such extreme anti-tipping views (eg people who expect tips are beggars) is clearly being deliberately inflammatory imo.

I'm sorry Nick, but this is completely misguided. The point is that in the US people who are waiting tables are forced into a position where they are at the mercy of the customer to pay them properly (because their employer fails to do so). This can be seen as quite a humiliating situation for the employee, and the only thing that Claus can be accused of here is choosing somewhat harsh terms to express his opinion.

Furthermore he went to great lengths to explain the situation in his home country and why he thinks that their approach is superior.

To me these were legitimate attempts at pursuing an educated debate and certainly not trolling.

BTW the DONT convention really sucks...

--Sigi

[mike777]

"I'm sorry Nick, but this is completely misguided. The point is that in the US people who are waiting tables are forced into a position where they are at the mercy of the customer to pay them properly (because their employer fails to do so). This can be seen as quite a humiliating situation for the employee, and the only thing that Claus can be accused of here is choosing somewhat harsh terms to express his opinion."



Yes Employees are always at the mercy of the customer that is the whole point! The customer buys from another company or stays home. Same is true for countries, if the taxpayer hates their country they may move to another country or create a new one...(see USA history for more details).

This is why I love Free housing, or free food or free health care, it just poof comes out of nothing and is free or free living wages poof...free money...poof Free education poof!


1) I see this very often stated by so many in America let alone other countries. Please keep in mind the customer pays employees. I know this sounds confusing but think of the employer as just the middle man between customer and employee.
IF the middle man takes too big of a handling cut the employee leaves and goes to work for another company, stays home or starts their own company. If the middle man takes too small of a cut then they are flooded with job applicants. The customer pays all the costs please keep this in mind. The employer has no money other than what it gets from the customer or owes to other people(loans) or is put into the company by the owners who expect to make a profit. OK? But bottom line the customer pays the bills or the company goes out of business ok?
2) The same thinking applies to governments..they do not have any money ok?
All the money comes from taxpayers or loans or selling stuff (land, etc) that belongs to taxpayers and is coming out of their pocket ok? Governments do not create money out of thin air(they create inflation)(See Germany in the 20's) or they just go broke as many countries have ok? Please keep in mind the taxpayers may pay in the form of money, or goods or services, they may be under duress or at the point of death but they still pay not the government ok?

Yes Employees are always at the mercy of the customer that is the whole point!

Bottom line it is the customer or the taxpayer who pays for everything not a company or government ok? That means when you want an employer or government to buy something you are really saying you want the customer or taxpayer to pay more money ok? Employers and governments go broke all the time when the customer or taxpayer stop paying the bills, they can borrow only so much until the lenders stop.

[csdenmark]

I certainly enjoy somebody agree with me. I am not used to that here on BBO. But I wonder why all think they cannot agree without referring to tone.

I tell you we have an intense debate in Denmark these days/months regarding freedom of speech. Muslims all over the world seems to blame danes for guarding fundamental rights for democracies. We also have a lot of managers from big danish company's and several former top-politicians and ambassadors who are in favor of the mullahs. They certainly all say the support freedom of speech but they blame the tone. The tone must respect the feelings of the mullahs.

Here in BBO Foum I intend to look for future posts to any topic and any poster which will disagree to a statement but pleasing the nice tone.

[luke warm]

Sigi_BC84, on Apr 3 2006, 07:38 AM, said:

I'm sorry Nick, but this is completely misguided.  The point is that in the US people who are waiting tables are forced into a position where they are at the mercy of the customer to pay them properly (because their employer fails to do so).

let a waiter in copenhagen wait tables in new york for a few months, then ask him or her under which system they'd rather work

mike said:

This is why I love Free housing, or free food or free health care, it just poof comes out of nothing and is free or free living wages poof...free money...poof Free education poof!

[keylime]

I've failed to see the logic in why the virtual compulsion to tip everyone in the US is bad for the workers or the economy. If anything, by taxing tips I think the gov't is doing a disservice to the industry itself.

Tips are an incentive for honest, hard work. Frankly tips are not that far removed from a simple "thank you" (which courtesy in general is not what it used to be in the US).

Some of the taxes we play are necessary - for example the gasoline taxes we pay furnish our road repairs, and in some cases, school budgets. Also, there is a very popular misconception that the poor pay an unfair share of tax. This is a pure lie. The top 50 percent of wageearners in the US, pay over 96 percent of the total taxes in the US.

I for one am thrilled to pay tax. I know, I know - you just saw someone write that they like paying tax. Why? Because there was a span of time in my life when because of my disorder (narcoleptic dysomnic bipolarism to be specific - only 1 in 400 Americans that have it) I was unable to contribute. It was in the feeling of being helpless that I resolved myself to not only combat this disease, but to be as "normal" as I could. When I got to fill out my 1040 this year, I didn't care that I got 600 bucks back; what I DID care about, was the fact that I had through a courageous and difficult journey overcame this enemy of my mind, and had the ability AND will to pay.

The problem I have with the discussion is, supply-side economics tells me that when you raise the price of a set of items, you reduce the buying power of the consumer. A great example is Wal-Mart. For the abuses that are heaped their way, Wal-Mart has kept the country from sinking into recession twice in the last 7 years. The iron will to keep prices low, has allowed more people access to better products, thus enabling more people to buy at an equivalent rate compared to the generations before. One of the best innovations Wal-Mart derived, was self-checkout. Not only do you reduce labor costs, but you also keep costs down. The scary thing is - I don't shop at Wal-Mart; I choose to shop at Target instead!

Same thing with taxes; reduce your buying power, and you reduce America with it.

[csdenmark]

luke warm, on Apr 4 2006, 01:56 AM, said:

let a waiter in copenhagen wait tables in new york for a few months, then ask him or her under which system they'd rather work

They won't do so Jimmy. You cannot compete for their salary.

We have different structures here than you have. 1/2 of waiters here are skilled workers with a 3 year education period switching between practice and theory. They are working according to agreements with labour unions.

As far as I have understood it is a level of training you don't have in America. 40% of danes has a skilled worker education.

Regarding taxi drivers we have no formal training but they need to make some tests. Also taxi drivers are working according to agreement but not so formal. Taxi drivers are in fact no longer a job-categori for etnic danes.

[Sigi_BC84]

csdenmark, on Apr 3 2006, 11:18 PM, said:

I certainly enjoy somebody agree with me. I am not used to that here on BBO. But I wonder why all think they cannot agree without referring to tone.

Claus, in my eyes you talk quite a lot of rubbish when it's about disclosure at the table and other issues concerning enforcement of rules on BBO.

However, when reading your contributions to these political discussions I get the impression that you are an educated individual and you are not afraid to voice your opinion and defend it. This goes a long way.
I'm sure many others here will agree.

So rest assured that certainly not all of BBF disagrees just because it's csdenmark speaking.

--Sigi

[mike777]

"Taxi drivers are in fact no longer a job-categori for etnic danes."

What is the difference between an ethnic Dane and nonethnic Dane? Are both Danes? Why the distinction? Where do Ethnic Danes come from?

I am not sure what an Ethnic American is but I bet someone out there can tell me? Do we even have Ethnic Americans? Confused again! Even Native Americans came from Asia I guess but not sure.

[csdenmark]

mike777, on Apr 4 2006, 02:50 PM, said:

"Taxi drivers are in fact no longer a job-categori for etnic danes."

What is the difference between an ethnic Dane and nonethnic Dane?  Are both Danes? Why the distinction? Where do Ethnic Danes come from?

I am not sure what an Ethnic American is but I bet someone out there can tell me? Do we even have Ethnic Americans? Confused again! Even Native Americans came from Asia I guess but not sure.

Mike I take your question serious as I think it can be a bit difficult to understand for americans living in a multicultural society.

Denmark and most of Europe countries are used to have a population of persons with parents and grandparents living all their life in Denmark. Not so very much contact with foreigners, yes other scandinavians, that means we share all same values.

This is no longer so. Since 1970 Denmark has become a society with more foreign contacts. Refugees from all over the world has sought help here. Those coming from South-America and from Asia has normally returned to their home countries after medical care and their home countries has got rid of their dictatorships.

We now have to deal with a large portion of persons from the Middle East. In general they have poorer education, many are analphabets, living on economic help from public transferrencies. This is an unsustainable situation. As well economically but also seen from a perspective of decent humanity. We want all here to benefit from our options for activity. Therefore we, like other nations, try to change our rules trying to pursuade and help those persons to be integrated in the danish society. Some call them new-danes, well thats a term. I prefer to be more precise, therefore I use the term non etnic danes. But today the term mostly means persons coming to Denmark from the Middle East and from Northern Africa. It mostly means persons with muslim background.

In Denmark we try to fight segregation. We try to help those who have no background in democratic values if they want help. If they dont want help to understand and dont need so then fine OK. If they need help but dont want help - then we ask them to leave Denmark.

[Sigi_BC84]

mike777, on Apr 3 2006, 07:40 PM, said:

Yes Employees are always at the mercy of the customer that is the whole point! The customer buys from another company or stays home. Same is true for countries, if the taxpayer hates their country they may move to another country or create a new one...(see USA history for more details).

One of the key points you failed to mention is leverage. The manager of a restaurant, heck, even the chef, do have a lot more leverage regarding the success of the business than the waiter. In turn, they should also be responsible (financially) for their decisions and not be able to pass on the risk in a cheap way to their employees.

If the chef messes up, the customer will certainly be less inclined to tip generously even if the waiter provided a flawless service.

If the manager messes up (for example by not advertising enough) and the restaurant does not get enough customers, again the waiter is screwed without being able to do anything about it.

--Sigi

[mike777]

Sigi_BC84, on Apr 4 2006, 08:15 AM, said:

mike777, on Apr 3 2006, 07:40 PM, said:

Yes Employees are always at the mercy of the customer that is the whole point!  The customer buys from another company or stays home. Same is true for countries, if the taxpayer hates their country they may move to another country or create a new one...(see USA history for more details).

One of the key points you failed to mention is leverage. The manager of a restaurant, heck, even the chef, do have a lot more leverage regarding the success of the business than the waiter. In turn, they should also be responsible (financially) for their decisions and not be able to pass on the risk in a cheap way to their employees.

If the chef messes up, the customer will certainly be less inclined to tip generously even if the waiter provided a flawless service.

If the manager messes up (for example by not advertising enough) and the restaurant does not get enough customers, again the waiter is screwed without being able to do anything about it.

--Sigi

Yep. One Employee screws up and everyone may lose their job or get paid a lot less. This happens all the time. Life is unfair!