[luke warm]

csdenmark, on Mar 31 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Tips abolished in Denmark more than 20 years ago. - We are not beggars.

i do not understand this.. most wait staff here make about $2.25 an hour... they rely on tips to live... most work very hard for their money... they are not beggars either

Quote

All citicens in Denmark have rights for a decent life, education, housing etc. They also have the obligation to contribute their fair share to the best for all. 

from each according to his means to each according to his needs

[nickf]

I'm all for tipping, when appropriate of course. If the local pizza dude delivers fast, then I reward him appropriately. And you know what? He's learnt that. Conversely, i have also given just a 5c tip to waiters/ restaurants where the service is crap. I think they got the message when I made a point of personally handing them their tip.

of course, it's imperative to recognise that in a lot of countries service industry employees are on the minimum wage and tips are an integral part of their package. I think Service is the optimal word here. Good service deserves be rewarded.

while I'm here, I might as well say it. It's my experience that those that harp on the most about tipping are generally the most tight fisted anyway. Discussions about tipping often provide them justification for this behaviour.

nickf
sydney

[Walddk]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 03:36 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Mar 31 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Tips abolished in Denmark more than 20 years ago. - We are not beggars.

i do not understand this.. most wait staff here make about $2.25 an hour... they rely on tips to live... most work very hard for their money... they are not beggars either

I agree that they are not beggars, Jimmy, but to pay them $2.25 an hour is a disgrace and should be prohibited by law!

Roland

[csdenmark]

To understand my post you maybe need to know that the word for tipping in Denmark was no neutral word. The word used, directly translated, was 'drinking-money'. Such a word is not associated with needs to cover costs for raising children, housing or whatever needs you may have. It was also the word used officially in tax-declarations, so not only a popular word. Maybe you better understand why those living of such felt alienated.

Drinking-money refers to social standards before 1933. By that time poverty in legislation was a qualifying argument for asking for some money. If the rich or the authorties felt guilty they granted you some money to survive. In 1933 first steps were taken towards welfare society where decent economical conditions for all became a right.

[csdenmark]

mike777, on Apr 1 2006, 02:18 AM, said:

"All citicens in Denmark have rights for a decent life, education, housing etc. They also have the obligation to contribute their fair share to the best for all."

Great post you can make a whole blog just on this issue. I never understood why the usa government just did not give everyone a house and a living wage, health care and education. This would get rid of the homeless and the poor. It would help the lame and ill. For those men and women unable to work such as those with children or the elderly we could provide homes and a living wage so they could provide for the children and raise them in a loving safe home. If Denmark can do this I do not see why our government cannot or will not do this.  It seems we  can make just as much money providing health care and homes for 300 million americans or more if we reduce the army to the size of Denmarks and get rid of our expensive weapons and atom bombs? If Denmark can live in peace with its neighbors why cannot the usa? Why pay for an army or weapons or atom bombs when we can feed and house Americans? Why have thousands of soldiers still in Germany, Japan and Korea, Denmark does not and almost no other countries do? It seems we can shrink our forces to the size of Denmarks quickly and have more money for the needy. Perhaps stop all that aid money and help Americans also?
I see no reason why our navy and airforce need to have bases all over the world, come home now? Do we really need to be in space, I say come home now and spend money on America.

Also about 60% of Americans do not pay any income tax, they do not have jobs or they make so little they pay zero or almost zero in income tax. It seems only fair that the rich 40% who earn all the money pay more in taxes for those 60% who do not. Since this 40% earn all or almost all of the money in our economy they should carry more of the burden to pay taxes.  Sales tax and gas tax are regressive taxes and hurt the poor more. Income taxes are progressive and hurt the poor much less.

I do not know the exact numbers in Europe but my guess is even less than 40% of the population have  jobs but they somehow afford better health care, education, housing, etc.

If Denmark can do this I do not see why our government cannot or will not do this.
Exactly the argument Bill Clinton used for re-visiting Denmark a few years ago. To study how we are able to manage.

I do not know the exact numbers in Europe but my guess is even less than 40%
Not exactly sure but I think I have read a bit over 50%. Employment rate for women is one of the highest here in all Europe. Very rare for women not to have a job.

Regarding your comments about weapons etc. you are right. We are taking advantage of USA here. If USA lowered their costs in this area we needed to raise ours. Something similar regarding science in general.

[csdenmark]

nickf, on Apr 1 2006, 05:28 AM, said:

I'm all for tipping, when appropriate of course. If the local pizza dude delivers fast, then I reward him appropriately. And you know what? He's learnt that. Conversely, i have also given just a 5c tip to waiters/ restaurants where the service is crap. I think they got the message when I made a point of personally handing them their tip.

of course, it's imperative to recognise that in a lot of countries service industry employees are on the minimum wage and tips are an integral part of their package. I think Service is the optimal word here. Good service deserves be rewarded.

while I'm here, I might as well say it. It's my experience that those that harp on the most about tipping are generally the most tight fisted anyway. Discussions about tipping often provide them justification for this behaviour.

nickf
sydney

Let's try to test your statement a bit.

You enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving the correct destination you are very happy. Pay the fare and tip.

Now you enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving at Strand Hotel you are not so happy. Pay the fare. No tips I assume!

Now you see a friendly a danish policeman helping the ducks to pass the street. You ask him to show you the way to The Little Mermaid. Through 'Strøget' he says - westwards. Grrrr. In your guide you have read thats for Tivoli.

You give him 20 DKR - now he says - through 'Bredgade' - and now you are happy. That info was according to your guide - eastwards.

You see we try to live according to value for money and try to avoid value for extra-money.

[Chamaco]

Waiter tips in the US is a habit that is integrated with the policy of low salaries.

I have known some euroopean freinds of mine, who tried both policies, as waiters, and they told me : "You know what ? I much prefer the US system: if business is low , ultimately you'll struggle or get fired both in the US and in europe; but when you do strike a place thatt has some moderately good business going on, , in the US, you'll get some real money even as waiter, whereas it wil be much more difficult in europe (unless yo work in theose "De Luxe", high society places)"


Now, if I had to pick my most annoying pet peeve about US, I'd rather destroy all "coffee to go" places as well as the related mugs ! hehe

[luke warm]

Walddk, on Apr 1 2006, 01:15 AM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 03:36 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Mar 31 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Tips abolished in Denmark more than 20 years ago. - We are not beggars.

i do not understand this.. most wait staff here make about $2.25 an hour... they rely on tips to live... most work very hard for their money... they are not beggars either

I agree that they are not beggars, Jimmy, but to pay them $2.25 an hour is a disgrace and should be prohibited by law!

Roland

i'm no expert, but i think the reason is (and it's a federal law - i mean, wait staff is excluded from the minimum wage law) that restaurants could not survive if they had to pay higher wages.. the argument is the same as others dealing with mandated minimum wages, but for restaurants the profit margin and survival rates are so low that they are considered 'special'

cs said:

Exactly the argument Bill Clinton used for re-visiting Denmark a few years ago. To study how we are able to manage.

for show... he knows the answer

Quote

Not exactly sure but I think I have read a bit over 50%. Employment rate for women is one of the highest here in all Europe. Very rare for women not to have a job.

it wasn't that long ago in this country, maybe 40, 50 years, when a 2 job household was unheard of... costs were down, prices were down, crime was down... moms stayed at home and raised the children...what happened? why are things so much worse now? i'll leave that for the social geniuses to figure out

Quote

Regarding your comments about weapons etc. you are right. We are taking advantage of USA here. If USA lowered their costs in this area we needed to raise ours. Something similar regarding science in general.

how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable?

[csdenmark]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 04:24 PM, said:

Walddk, on Apr 1 2006, 01:15 AM, said:

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 03:36 AM, said:

csdenmark, on Mar 31 2006, 05:20 PM, said:

Tips abolished in Denmark more than 20 years ago. - We are not beggars.

i do not understand this.. most wait staff here make about $2.25 an hour... they rely on tips to live... most work very hard for their money... they are not beggars either

I agree that they are not beggars, Jimmy, but to pay them $2.25 an hour is a disgrace and should be prohibited by law!

Roland

i'm no expert, but i think the reason is (and it's a federal law - i mean, wait staff is excluded from the minimum wage law) that restaurants could not survive if they had to pay higher wages.. the argument is the same as others dealing with mandated minimum wages, but for restaurants the profit margin and survival rates are so low that they are considered 'special'

cs said:

Exactly the argument Bill Clinton used for re-visiting Denmark a few years ago. To study how we are able to manage.

for show... he knows the answer

Quote

Not exactly sure but I think I have read a bit over 50%. Employment rate for women is one of the highest here in all Europe. Very rare for women not to have a job.

it wasn't that long ago in this country, maybe 40, 50 years, when a 2 job household was unheard of... costs were down, prices were down, crime was down... moms stayed at home and raised the children...what happened? why are things so much worse now? i'll leave that for the social geniuses to figure out

Quote

Regarding your comments about weapons etc. you are right. We are taking advantage of USA here. If USA lowered their costs in this area we needed to raise ours. Something similar regarding science in general.

how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable?

the argument is the same as others dealing with mandated minimum wages, but for restaurants the profit margin and survival rates are so low that they are considered 'special'
We also have restaurants here and there are still opening new ones. They all pay salaries according to agreement with Labor Unions - and no tips. Same for taxi drivers.

maybe 40, 50 years, when a 2 job household was unheard of
Same here

how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable?
US is leader of NATO because they want to. US is on Thule because they want to. Nobody has asked US to come and nobody asks US to go. - I think US stays as long they see some point in their presence.

[csdenmark]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2006, 04:42 PM, said:

In the UK, waitresses and other industries staff are now taxed on expected tips and perks, so by not tipping, I am actually helping them not pay so much tax in the future (dam, I am so good to people it makes me want to throw up)

The way I understand is this: They are expected to receive 15% but you only pay 10%. Then you think they are only taxed by 10%.

If I have understood you right - you are promoting underground economy. When I during my studies worked as taxi driver and I received too little tips - I had to make some tours outside the formal system in order to see to that I had my income.

For all income inside the formal system I had to add 15% tips - no matter received or not.

[luke warm]

csdenmark, on Apr 1 2006, 09:51 AM, said:

how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable?
US is leader of NATO because they want to. US is on Thule because they want to. Nobody has asked US to come and nobody asks US to go. - I think US stays as long they see some point in their presence.

yes, but that wasn't the question... could you survive as a nation if the us withdrew from nato? or if the us simply went into an isolationist shell? people either want the us to do just that or want the us to run foreign policy based on their own national interests (real or perceived interests)

people forget that prior to wwII the majority in this country wanted just that, for america to isolate herself and let europe handle european problems... but one reason people here elect leaders is so they can lead... i can't think of anything more impotent than a country that formulates policies based on the opinions of foreign nationals, and/or on internal polls... even so, some want that very thing

[csdenmark]

luke warm, on Apr 1 2006, 05:01 PM, said:

csdenmark, on Apr 1 2006, 09:51 AM, said:

how bout not if we lowered our costs, but if we withdrew our military, political, and economic presence? would that be acceptable?
US is leader of NATO because they want to. US is on Thule because they want to. Nobody has asked US to come and nobody asks US to go. - I think US stays as long they see some point in their presence.

yes, but that wasn't the question... could you survive as a nation if the us withdrew from nato? or if the us simply went into an isolationist shell? people either want the us to do just that or want the us to run foreign policy based on their own national interests (real or perceived interests)

people forget that prior to wwII the majority in this country wanted just that, for america to isolate herself and let europe handle european problems... but one reason people here elect leaders is so they can lead... i can't think of anything more impotent than a country that formulates policies based on the opinions of foreign nationals, and/or on internal polls... even so, some want that very thing

could you survive as a nation if the us withdrew from nato?
Of course - but there will be costs. So as long as you stay we spend our money for something more fun than weapons.

I will not be dragged into a WWII discussion. I have never studied. I am mostly interested in moral, economy, culture and science.

If somebody want to have a war on Greenland it will need to be a summerwar. Even the russian nuclear ice-breakers cannot force top of Greenland after November. I intend to beat them with my red-nosed reindeers

[Rain]

sceptic, on Apr 1 2006, 08:42 AM, said:

In the UK, waitresses and other industries staff are now taxed on expected tips and perks, so by not tipping, I am actually helping them not pay so much tax in the future (dam, I am so good to people it makes me want to throw up)

They'll still be taxed on the higher expected taxes with this system, whether or not they actually made the extra in taxes. Waitor loses out.

[Gerben42]

First about taxes:

If I buy something in a supermarkt and see it costs $0.99 and I have one dollar in my pocket, I want to be able to buy it, instead of added taxes that are not listed until you get the unpleasant surprise when you pay.

Then about tipping:

I very much prefer the German system. A tip is what you give to someone when they do something especially well. It is a reward and needs to be earned and can therefore never be expected. Waiters and waitresses have the right to be subject to the minimum wage laws like anyone else. So the prices in the restaurants go up. NO THEY DON'T! If I pay $30 and $6 tip it's the same as if I pay $34 dollars and $2 tip. At least with min. wages you KNOW where the tip is going, instead of that it all goes into a big tip pot and you don't know who gets what.

Quote

You enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving the correct destination you are very happy. Pay the fare and tip.

It is normal to arrive at the correct destination. However if he got there and you liked his driving style or he avoided a traffic jam, go ahead and tip.

Quote

Now you enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving at Strand Hotel you are not so happy. Pay the fare. No tips I assume!

I'm not paying any fare if they don't take me where I want to go.

If possible I prefer taking public transport though

[nickf]

I can't believe some of the alleged egalitarian crap espoused by some of the correspondents to this thread. I think uday was right, this can't be anything but trolling.

To hold such extreme anti-tipping views (eg people who expect tips are beggars) is clearly being deliberately inflammatory imo.

nickf
sydney

[csdenmark]

Gerben42, on Apr 2 2006, 12:10 AM, said:

First about taxes:

If I buy something in a supermarkt and see it costs $0.99 and I have one dollar in my pocket, I want to be able to buy it, instead of added taxes that are not listed until you get the unpleasant surprise when you pay.

Then about tipping:

I very much prefer the German system. A tip is what you give to someone when they do something especially well. It is a reward and needs to be earned and can therefore never be expected. Waiters and waitresses have the right to be subject to the minimum wage laws like anyone else. So the prices in the restaurants go up. NO THEY DON'T! If I pay $30 and $6 tip it's the same as if I pay $34 dollars and $2 tip. At least with min. wages you KNOW where the tip is going, instead of that it all goes into a big tip pot and you don't know who gets what.

Quote

You enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving the correct destination you are very happy. Pay the fare and tip.

It is normal to arrive at the correct destination. However if he got there and you liked his driving style or he avoided a traffic jam, go ahead and tip.

Quote

Now you enter a taxi - ask for Hilton Hotel. Arriving at Strand Hotel you are not so happy. Pay the fare. No tips I assume!

I'm not paying any fare if they don't take me where I want to go.

If possible I prefer taking public transport though

See Gerben the system was a little bit more tricky.

The fare you see in the car on clock is 10 DKR. According to my working conditions the price is not 10 DKR but 10 DKR + 15% = 11,50 DKR. Thats the price I ask for. Thats the way for pricing you have accepted by entering a danish taxi. My question is: How much do you pay me. I ask you to pay 11,50, which is the price you are obliged to pay, and you see the price on clock in the car 10. I will need to declarate to tax-authorities as 11,50. What do you pay? 10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter?
10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law.

So it was everywhere 20 years ago.

[Gerben42]

Quote

On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter?
10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law.

The point is that why if you have to pay 11,50 DKR anyway, why is it listed on the price list as 10,00 DKR? If I were a tourist (and I would be when in Denmark) I'd be very annoyed by not seeing advance the price that something will cost ME.

If the price list says: 11,50 DKR, service included, everything is clear.

[csdenmark]

Gerben42, on Apr 2 2006, 10:24 AM, said:

Quote

On restaurants you see listed price for a beer 10 DKR. You order 1 beer and waiter ask you to pay 11,50(10 DKR +15%) which is the price you are obliged to pay. How much do you pay the waiter?
10,00? 11,50? 13,00? or ???

Please note, If you refuse to pay 11,50 DKR you will be driven to policestation where you will need to pay 11,50 DKR. Unless you accept you will be kept by the police, thats the law.

The point is that why if you have to pay 11,50 DKR anyway, why is it listed on the price list as 10,00 DKR? If I were a tourist (and I would be when in Denmark) I'd be very annoyed by not seeing advance the price that something will cost ME.

If the price list says: 11,50 DKR, service included, everything is clear.

So it is now. Everywhere price is now 11,50 as it was before.

Before:

List price..............10,00
Forced tips.............1,50(15%)
----------------------------
Customer price.....11,50
Volunteer tip.........??????
----------------------------
Total....................11,50 + ???


Now:
List price..............11,50
----------------------------
Customer price....11,50


I think this is the same scheme in all societies with a public sector handling transferrings between generations. Customers and visitors to a country certainly don't know the structure behind.

[Badmonster]

In most cases (for large parties and some luxury services a 15 or 20 percent gratutity is included and appears on the bill) tipping in the US is not required by law, just by conscience.

[mink]

We have to distinguish 3 type of tipping systems:

1. No tipping or only voluntary tipps for outstanding service. Wages are the same like in other comparable areas of the economy.

2. Tips are voluntary but needed by the waitors as their wages are not a fair payment for their work, and they could not make a living without the tips.

3. Tips are required the customer cannot avoid them, and the waitor can take legal actions if the customer refuses to pay.


Type 1 and 3 is pretty much the same: The waitor gets money for his work, and he is entitled for this money.

The problematic type is 2. Legally, a customer signs 2 contracts when entering a restaurant: One with the restaurant owner about providing dishes and drinks, and one with the waiter about the transportation of the food. While the prices for the restaurant are set by the owner and payment of these prices can be legally enforced, the waiter has to hope for the goodwill of the guests: they can pay the usual rate, or more if they liked the service, or less - maybe even nothing - if they disliked the service. The problematical part is the last one: Nobody expects the customers of a restaurant judge the service objectively. The customer can use what kind of criteria he likes to judge the waitor's performance, and no matter how unjust the judgement is, the waitor has no right to get a payment for his work. In my view, depending on the mood of the customers (and his ability to calcualte 15% or whatever the usual rate is) is much worse than being a beggar: If a beggar is not paid by somebody who passes by, he has not lost anything, as he did not work, but the waitor works for the customer and trusted to get payed for it, and then maybe gets nothing, though he did his work properly.

This is much the same like you write an individual computer program for somebody, test it, it works and meets its specification, you deliver it to the customer, but he says "I do not like the way it was coded, so I will not pay for it". Nevertheless, he keeps and uses it. It is just ridiculous, and I cannot believe that anybody defends such a system.

Karl