Annoying Opponents

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Annoying Opponents Precision

#21 jeffford76

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Posted 2013-July-15, 16:16

Elianna, on 2013-July-15, 12:30, said:

Officially, you're only supposed to ask if it makes a difference. So in other words, if a pair plays different defences, and someone wants to bid over 1C announced as short, they have to ask before they bid, but if they weren't planning on bidding, they aren't supposed to ask. Clearly, you can see that there is potential for both UI, and for the 1C opening side to gain information about the opponents' hand due to them having to ask questions.

I don't think this is right. I think if you play different defenses you should always ask rather than give partner UI. I've never seen any ACBL materials suggesting otherwise.

#22 Vampyr

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Posted 2013-July-15, 16:19

jeffford76, on 2013-July-15, 16:16, said:

I don't think this is right. I think if you play different defenses you should always ask rather than give partner UI. I've never seen any ACBL materials suggesting otherwise.

I don't mean to be a pest, but I am planning to play in the ACBL in the near future. Do pairs who always ask usually put it on their convention cards?

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein

#23 blackshoe

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Posted 2013-July-15, 21:28

Vampyr, on 2013-July-15, 16:19, said:

I don't mean to be a pest, but I am planning to play in the ACBL in the near future. Do pairs who always ask usually put it on their convention cards?

Not in my experience, but then the ACBL is a big place, and I haven't been everywhere. B-)

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#24 Siegmund

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Posted 2013-July-15, 23:09

If people put everything on their convention cards that they should, and kept the convention cards where they were visible, you wouldn't need to ask what their 1C was, because you'd be able to read it.

It is going to be eye-opening for Stefanie to see how little the average ACBL player puts on the card and how few cards are in sight. I just came back from playing 4 days at a regional, 2 sessions a day, and in that time, I had one person study my card before the beginning of a match and three people glance at it during a hand. Everyone else just ignored it as it sat on the table, and then asked about our carding when our side was about to make an opening lead.

#25 Vampyr

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Posted 2013-July-16, 02:20

They do at least tell you their basic system before the round begins?

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein

#26 CSGibson

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Posted 2013-July-16, 09:07

Vampyr, on 2013-July-16, 02:20, said:

They do at least tell you their basic system before the round begins?

Very few, if any, will do so.

Chris Gibson

#27 ArtK78

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Posted 2013-July-16, 10:03

I don't know where the players in this thread are playing, but in the games that I play, the convention cards are usually well filled out, they give the basic system and much more. If they don't, there may be penalties assessed.

I mentioned once before that my pair was assessed a penalty in the first round of our District NAOP qualifying for not having two fully completed convention cards available. My partner did not have a convention card. While I thought that the penalty was silly (especially as the opponents were not complaining about the fact that we didn't have two convention cards available), it does show that some TDs take this requirement seriously.

#28 CSGibson

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Posted 2013-July-16, 10:16

ArtK78, on 2013-July-16, 10:03, said:

When she was asking about telling basic systems, I thought Stefanie was referring to the European practice of announcing polish club, precision, etc before a round, not asking if the convention cards had that basic information.

Chris Gibson

#29 gnasher

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Posted 2013-July-16, 11:13

CSGibson, on 2013-July-16, 10:16, said:

I thought Stefanie was referring to the European practice of announcing polish club, precision, etc before a round

That's not particularly common in many places, in my experience.

... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn

#30 jeffford76

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Posted 2013-July-16, 11:19

Vampyr, on 2013-July-15, 16:19, said:

I don't mean to be a pest, but I am planning to play in the ACBL in the near future. Do pairs who always ask usually put it on their convention cards?

Although legal, it's very unusual to play a different defense to a short club instead of treating it as natural. I've never seen "we always ask" written on a card, but it certainly would be ok to put it there if you're worried about a ruling.

#31 PhilKing

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Posted 2013-July-16, 11:41

jeffford76, on 2013-July-16, 11:19, said:

In England, you can play a destructive artificial defence versus a 2-card club, but not if it promises 3. I play such a defence, so check the card at the start of the round.

#32 FM75

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Posted 2013-July-16, 15:46

Shugart23, on 2013-July-12, 13:03, said:

Ok, so my wife and I play a complicated precision system and are pretty decent at it, even where there is interference. At Club games, people occasionally throw bids in an effort to 'mess things' up. Last night, after wife opened 1C, the next bidder overcalled 2D with 10 points and 5 Diamonds, 9 high......SO I double to show 5-7 HCP and wife leaves it in and we go for a top (Match points).

If bidding goes 1C, and Opponents bid at the one level, say 1H, and I want to penalize, I will pass and partner Doubles if she thinks I am doing a trap pass.

But it is a nuisance when opponents just throw a bid in for no other purpose but to disrupt...

I wouldn't mind a discussion on what and how other precision players deal with 'psych'bids, or even worse than psych bids. Occasionally, we do get messed up by them

Maybe you should consider some other alternatives:
1C - 1x
pass = 0-4 - Having partner guess, seems wrong IMO
X = 5-7(8)
any other bid is positive response

1C - X
as above, except XX replaces X

1C - 2x
pass - then partner can take action based on his hand and any RHO call
X - balanced, pick a range that you like with your system
etc.

#33 Vampyr

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Posted 2013-July-16, 16:37

PhilKing, on 2013-July-16, 11:41, said:

In England, you can play a destructive artificial defence versus a 2-card club, but not if it promises 3. I play such a defence, so check the card at the start of the round.

Yes. Unfortunately the ACBL card does not have a place where players can indicate whether they play a 2-card club suit that is "natural" or one that is not.

I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein

#34 ArtK78

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Posted 2013-July-16, 22:09

Vampyr, on 2013-July-16, 16:37, said:

Yes. Unfortunately the ACBL card does not have a place where players can indicate whether they play a 2-card club suit that is "natural" or one that is not.

Of course it does. If 1♣ is not strong forcing and artificial, and the length promised is 2+, then it is natural.

#35 awm

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Posted 2013-July-16, 23:23

ArtK78, on 2013-July-16, 22:09, said:

Of course it does. If 1♣ is not strong forcing and artificial, and the length promised is 2+, then it is natural.

This is not actually true. Only the 1♣ opening that is 3+♣ or 4432 in that order has been categorized as natural. A 1♣ opening that includes other balanced shapes with doubleton club (i.e. 4342 or even 3352) is not considered natural. The reason as I understand it is to protect beginners (and life-beginners) who play 1♦ showing four... not to protect the advanced-plus crowd playing the increasingly popular method where 1♦ is 4+♦ unbalanced and 1♣ includes all weak notrumps.

There isn't a place on the convention card to distinguish between these methods; some players will mark it anyway and others won't. In general it's best to ask when opponents announce "could be short" if it makes any difference to you -- this is rather annoying in that it removes some of the benefit of announcements over alerts (if you have to ask anyway, might as well alert).

Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit

#36 blackshoe

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Posted 2013-July-18, 02:07

jeffford76, on 2013-July-16, 11:19, said:

Um, per a recent change in the GCC, a 'short club' is natural (by definition) if it shows precisely 4=4=3=2 distribution. Since it's natural, defenses allowed under item 7 in the "competitive" section of the GCC are not permitted against this short club. If the 'short club' could include other distributions, then it is not natural, and any defense is allowed (which is what item 7 says).

#37 Shugart23

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Posted 2013-July-18, 05:19

FM75, on 2013-July-16, 15:46, said:

Yes. if Opponents are kind enough to double, we get pass and redouble as free bids...so pass shows 0-4; 1D shows 5-7 and all other bids remain as if no double occurred. Redouble means we have them on the run

If Opponents overcall 1D, pass shows 0-4, double shows 5-7 and all other bids remain the same as if no 1D overcall

If Opponents overcall 1H through 2S, pass is 0-4 and double is 5-7, and any suit bid is Game going positive

If Opponents overcall 2NT or higher. Double is for business, any other bid is positive

#38 Shugart23

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Posted 2013-July-18, 05:22

Shugart23, on 2013-July-18, 05:19, said:

Plus we have the trap pass by responder, if opponents overcall the 1C up through 2S

#39 the_clown

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Posted 2013-July-18, 06:51

Shugart23, on 2013-July-18, 05:19, said:

Playing penalty doubles after overcalls higher than 2N seems pretty bad to me, what are you supposed to do with a classical t/o X and game going hand?

#40 Shugart23

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Posted 2013-July-18, 08:02

the_clown, on 2013-July-18, 06:51, said:

Playing penalty doubles after overcalls higher than 2N seems pretty bad to me, what are you supposed to do with a classical t/o X and game going hand?

Honestly, when partner opens 16+, and I have 8+, we arent running into opponents jumping in at the 3 level with a lot of frequency. (We have 24+ HCP) I don't play strong 2C openings, but I am pretty careful about jumping in at 3 level when RHO has opened strong 2C

We won't miss game, because any bid I make over the preempt is game forcing. Preempts do take away our communication, but that is what they are designed to do

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Annoying Opponents Precision

#21 jeffford76

#22 Vampyr

#23 blackshoe

#24 Siegmund

#25 Vampyr

#26 CSGibson

#27 ArtK78

#28 CSGibson

#29 gnasher

#30 jeffford76

#31 PhilKing

#32 FM75

#33 Vampyr

#34 ArtK78

#35 awm

#36 blackshoe

#37 Shugart23

#38 Shugart23

#39 the_clown

#40 Shugart23

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