[mike777]

3NT 17-19

However point well taken. I do have a system gap elsewhere that calls for creativity.

Opponents do love over calling 2+ one club openings, so one gets lots of practice in..

[WasWinM]

I think there is a reasonable argument for a reverse into 2H rather than 2D. Partner will not raise without 4-card support, so his weak 5/4 or 5/5 hand finds a nice resting place. A 3C bid boxes him in to a pass with a weak hand. I don't know what he or she would do over 2D. Regardless, it is worth considering to bid 2H.

[mikeh]

I agree with David.

Standard methods aren’t great for handling these hands My clubs are a bit light for the 3C rebid and my red suits too strong…partner may have problems over 3C even with enough hcp to reach game because he may have a weak holding in a red suit (there are ways to cope with that…a new suit by responder is a probe for 3N)


But every method has flaws or gaps. It’s inevitable because we simply can’t have enough bids to describe every holding.

I see a tendency here to invent bids or to otherwise distort one’s hand as if that’s the way to deal with gaps. In one sense it is: indeed when one holds a hand that cannot be well described, one should look for the least harmful/most useful distortion,

But when a hand does fall into a standard bid, one should be very careful before one distorts one’s hand. Here, 3C is not a wonderful bid for the reasons I set out above: but it is by far the most accurate description of one’s hand.

It’s important to understand that if you bid anything other than 3C partner will forever, on this hand, assume that you DO NOT hold a decent 6 card club suit with around 16 hcp and no other 4 card suit. From his perspective, you’d bid 3C with such a hand. You bid something else, ergo you have a different hand.

It’s always tempting to try to control an auction, especially when one has extra values. But partner is unlimited and you are having an uncontested constructive auction, so you should focus on exchanging information rather than masterminding by telling partner some lie about your hand.

If any partner of mine reversed in this hand, I’d consider ending the partnership. I do not play with people who mastermind.

That’s not to say that there are not hands on which I think it reasonable (or even ‘best’) to do something unilateral. But NEVER in the early stages of an uncontested constructive auction. Do you people hate your partner that much?

Bridge is a hard game. Bidding well on a consistent basis is a partnership skill or attribute. By distorting hands when there is no bridge reason to do so…and the distortion is significant…makes partner’s task anywhere from more difficult than it need be to impossible. Why do it? My take is that many posters here think they need to be in charge. Get over it or forget ever forming a solid partnership with a good player.

[HardVector]

I don't get the problem. 1c-3c shows a hand that is 16-18, 6+ clubs and tends to deny a second suit. 3n should show a very different hand. I usually do it with a "gambling nt" hand that has an outside stopper. So, something like x Axx xx AKQJxxx. You have 8 tricks and hope that partner being able to respond will get you the 9th, or partner may have the hand that can bid 6c.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2026-September-24, 05:52, said:

You are all technically correct, but are choosing to phrase this in confusing ways.

It is standard to include single-suited clubs, too strong for a jump to 3♣ (so approximately 18+), into a fake reverse. This makes the 2♦ rebid two-way - either a clubs-diamonds reverse (with 4(+)♦5(+)♣), or a single-suited very strong clubs hand (with 6(+)♣ and 18(+) hcp or so). This hand fails the first conditions on diamond length and the second on strength. Do not mix and match these requirements, this causes confusion.

This fake reverse is not considered 'semi artificial' - there is simply no standard rebid on 1♣-1♥ with, say, ♠x, ♥AK, ♦AJx, ♣AQJxxxx. People might invent 2NT or 3NT, but the default is 2♦.

Just to be clear, by 'semi-artificial' I did not mean a simple fake reverse, or even a fake reverse that was semi-conventionalized to be two-way. I was referring to a convention whereby the reverse was either natural or an artificial well defined set of strong hands that open 1m, including the single suiter, 3 card support, various 4 card supports.

I agree that the hand is not strong enough for this bid either.

[pescetom]

 DavidKok, on 2026-September-24, 06:36, said:

Personally I think these system gaps are a lot of fun. For example, let me deal you ♠AQx, ♥KQx, ♦Axx, ♣Qxxx. Nice hand, right? But you're in third, and partner just opened 1♣. Now what?

We have plenty of gaps, but I don't see this one.
With our agreements that is an automatic 2♣ GF (denying a 4cM, not promising a clubs fit).

This is fun, but also way OT, so if my reply is contentious then please open another thread

[pescetom]

Getting back to the grindstone, even those who would have contemplated 2♦ decided to follow system.
MP

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Your call now?

[akwoo]

If I was opposite a weak declarer (which might include me!) and was trying to maximize results for today - 3N. Otherwise, 4H. (This looks like a good hand to play in a Moysian, but not if partner isn't good at declaring Moysians.)

[mikeh]

akwoo, on 2026-September-24, 15:46, said:

If I was opposite a weak declarer (which might include me!) and was trying to maximize results for today - 3N. Otherwise, 4H. (This looks like a good hand to play in a Moysian, but not if partner isn't good at declaring Moysians.)

I wouldn’t expect partner to be promising 4 hearts here. What would you bid with Qxxxx AQx xx Jxx? Bear in mind that partner could have 3 spades

3H is initially, imo, one of:

1. 5=5 or better in the majors, probably pulling 3N to 4H, but maybe not

2. A probe for 3N, showing values in hearts and denying values in diamonds

It is extremely unlikeky that opener has 4 hearts. I used to play that a reverse had a higher lower limit than does 3C, but I was persuaded, by discussions in here, that such is not a good agreement. Playing ingberman or lebensohl over reverses still gives us a chance of playing 3C opposite a weak hand. Imperfect, but few things are perfect, in bridge or life.

[akwoo]

mikeh, on 2026-September-24, 17:15, said:

I wouldn’t expect partner to be promising 4 hearts here. What would you bid with Qxxxx AQx xx Jxx? Bear in mind that partner could have 3 spades

3H is initially, imo, one of:

1. 5=5 or better in the majors, probably pulling 3N to 4H, but maybe not

2. A probe for 3N, showing values in hearts and denying values in diamonds

It is extremely unlikeky that opener has 4 hearts. I used to play that a reverse had a higher lower limit than does 3C, but I was persuaded, by discussions in here, that such is not a good agreement. Playing ingberman or lebensohl over reverses still gives us a chance of playing 3C opposite a weak hand. Imperfect, but few things are perfect, in bridge or life.

Hmm - my instinct is to stick all my artificiality in the minors - so 3D with your example hand. I could even be convinced that 3H promises 5-5 and then 5-4 hands bid 3D. No asking for stoppers when opponents are blind - just bluff and don't tell them what to lead.

KS updated plays that the 3C rebid is game forcing single suited, and the intermediate hand like this one goes through the 2D reverse (which could be on 1 diamond if 3=3=1=6). There is merit to this treatment (even playing strong NT), though I've never had a long term partner who wanted to try this.

[mikeh]

akwoo, on 2026-September-24, 18:47, said:

Hmm - my instinct is to stick all my artificiality in the minors - so 3D with your example hand. I could even be convinced that 3H promises 5-5 and then 5-4 hands bid 3D. No asking for stoppers when opponents are blind - just bluff and don't tell them what to lead.

KS updated plays that the 3C rebid is game forcing single suited, and the intermediate hand like this one goes through the 2D reverse (which could be on 1 diamond if 3=3=1=6). There is merit to this treatment (even playing strong NT), though I've never had a long term partner who wanted to try this.

You can’t have it both ways. Give responder a stopper in one red suit and not the other…is your partner a mind reader? 3D….alert…wait…I’m mind reading…ok, this time he has diamond values not hearts. Oh…wait a second…now the vibes are saying it’s the other way around.

I think I’ll call you Kreskin, which is dating myself, lol.

Me? I rely on describing my hand to partner so he doesn’t need to read my mind. I have hearts stopped…3H. I have diamonds stopped? 3D.
Now, in fairness I can think of hands on which I’d bid 3D with nothing serious in either red suit but spades not good enough to rebid and not wanting to go by 3N…plus maximizing the chance of opener bidding 3S.

But that’s just me…I bid as if I’m in a partnership with a player of equal or better skill. And if my partner is less skilled? All the more reason for bidding as a partnership. I hate partners who think they’re always the decision makers and I refuse to be that player with anyone. Iow, I don’t mastermind in constructive auctions. I do realize that is a minority position on this forum.

As for KS, updated or otherwise, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone play it in 30+ years, and there are many, many reasons why nobody plays it these days. It was excellent in its day but it’s way out of date now

[akwoo]

mikeh, on 2026-September-24, 19:50, said:

You can’t have it both ways. Give responder a stopper in one red suit and not the other…is your partner a mind reader? 3D….alert…wait…I’m mind reading…ok, this time he has diamond values not hearts. Oh…wait a second…now the vibes are saying it’s the other way around.

I think I’ll call you Kreskin, which is dating myself, lol.

Me? I rely on describing my hand to partner so he doesn’t need to read my mind. I have hearts stopped…3H. I have diamonds stopped? 3D.
Now, in fairness I can think of hands on which I’d bid 3D with nothing serious in either red suit but spades not good enough to rebid and not wanting to go by 3N…plus maximizing the chance of opener bidding 3S.

But that’s just me…I bid as if I’m in a partnership with a player of equal or better skill. And if my partner is less skilled? All the more reason for bidding as a partnership. I hate partners who think they’re always the decision makers and I refuse to be that player with anyone. Iow, I don’t mastermind in constructive auctions. I do realize that is a minority position on this forum.

As for KS, updated or otherwise, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone play it in 30+ years, and there are many, many reasons why nobody plays it these days. It was excellent in its day but it’s way out of date now

No, playing this system, partner doesn't know what red suit I have a stopper in. Assuming appropriate strength and not 5 hearts, responder bids 3D if they're looking for a 5-3 spade fit and 3N if they aren't, in neither case saying anything about stoppers. The point is - opponents don't know about stoppers either. What would be your choice if you find out you're missing a stopper? Play in 5C and take your 30% for +600 when most of the field is getting a favorable lead and making +630? I'd rather hope for a favorable lead at 3N myself, which, if no one knows who if any has what stopper, isn't so unlikely. This is a systemic partnership choice to play 3N without worrying about stoppers when opponents could be equally in the dark, not masterminding. Yeah this is dumb at IMPs, and even at MPs your opponents (and, just as importantly, the rest of the field you're playing in) find the right lead more often than mine. Partner and I get to decide what events we want to optimize our system for.

Doub-Wildavsky is the only top pair I know of playing a KS descendent system. Yeah I know the disadvantages. In any case, I'm just pointing out a treatment someone might want to adopt if they decide it fits their partnership style and the rest of their system.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-September-24, 15:00, said:

Getting back to the grindstone, even those who would have contemplated 2♦ decided to follow system.
MP

---

Your call now?

3NT.

For me, 3NT showes only values, Axx would be sufficient.

[pescetom]

 mikeh, on 2026-September-24, 17:15, said:

I wouldn’t expect partner to be promising 4 hearts here. What would you bid with Qxxxx AQx xx Jxx? Bear in mind that partner could have 3 spades

3H is initially, imo, one of:

1. 5=5 or better in the majors, probably pulling 3N to 4H, but maybe not

2. A probe for 3N, showing values in hearts and denying values in diamonds

That's what I would figure with our system.
And your call now is 3NT?

[bluenikki]

akwoo, on 2026-September-24, 18:47, said:

(which could be on 1 diamond if 3=3=1=6).

Where in the world did you get such an idea? Not from the pamphlet.

[pescetom]

For those who would bid 3NT over 3♥, what is your call if partner pulls to 4♥?

MP

---

[jillybean]

I'll cooperate with 5♣, the next call may be for a taxi, or ambulance.
Partner could have bid 4♥/3♣

[pescetom]

Interesting, your partner will bid 5♥ denying diamonds control.

I think this is one of the few times I would have hit the red RKCB button: I'm interested in the other three Aces and the trump Queen and I don't see that control bidding will do more in the same cramped space, except maybe expose a diamonds void if you don't play those responses in RKCB.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2026-September-25, 08:54, said:

Interesting, your partner will bid 5♥ denying diamonds control.

I think this is one of the few times I would have hit the red RKCB button: I'm interested in the other three Aces and the trump Queen and I don't see that control bidding will do more in the same cramped space, except maybe expose a diamonds void if you don't play those responses in RKCB.

I would have bid 4♠ kickback, I'd have bid 3♠ with any hint of support rather than 3N

I'd have seriously considered rebidding 1N playing weak NT

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-September-25, 08:07, said:

For those who would bid 3NT over 3♥, what is your call if partner pulls to 4♥?

MP

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I Pass, for me 4H is choice of games.

Obv. you could see this different, if p has slam interest he can bid 4D.