[jillybean]

15-17 nt, xyz and all that jazz

---

[mike777]

What blame?

East tried bidding a low Hcp minor suit slam

If it goes down try passing 3nT or 5D next time..

[P_Marlowe]

East?

East has 15HCP, facing a weak NT opener, who said, he has values in hearts and clubs,
which means, that the prob. that 4 of his 5 loosers are covered is low, ...,
You have a known 54 fit in diamonds, and face a spade doubleton, i.e. your 2nd spade
looser is covered, but you still need the spade finesse, 6D is ok as cpntract amd call,
if you replace the spade Q with the spade King.

[pescetom]

East, as others say.
If he was so in love with his hand opposite 12-14 balanced then he could at least have bid XYZ 2N then 3♦ which paints the picture of 5-5 SI.

[apollo1201]

Some (out of curiousity) questions that do not go on assessing the blame, to the extent there is one, we ve probably all been in worse hands before, essentially on the SK finesse and not cataclysmic breaks around.

What would 3D instead of 2D show? Did 2H deny 3-cd S? Is 3NT with Qxx C acceptable?

E was probably a bit hasty, we could be off 2 aces (Kx AKxx xxxx QJx) or cold for 7 although unlikely (Kx JT9x Axxx AQx).

W could insist on H over 3D as they need some small help in C, and that would probably keep you out of this <50% slam, E fearing too much wastage. Although Kx AKxx xxxx Axx is virtually bullet proof and bids the same as it does not want to play 3NT facing a sg C.


Tough hand. But I would not overly spend time on it for discussion with partner.

[akwoo]

East should bid 3D over 1N and respect partner's 3N decision after that.

[HardVector]

There is one concept that will help you here. You don't pull games to play in partscores. After 3n, if you bid 4d (forcing), you can explore slams without going past 4n.

[jillybean]

apollo1201, on 2026-September-09, 11:02, said:

What would 3D instead of 2D show? Did 2H deny 3-cd S? Is 3NT with Qxx C acceptable?

Interesting,3♦ is undefined as we have the slower way to bid a monster ♠/♦ hand. I'm not looking to add a meaning to it
2♥ does not deny 3♠ and shows 4♥ , 'on the way'. I do question the value of showing 4H if you hold 3S but showing the hearts is the standard.
I am West here and was wondering if anyone supports diamonds rather than rebidding nt.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-September-09, 16:00, said:

Interesting,3♦ is undefined as we have the slower way to bid a monster ♠/♦ hand. I'm not looking to add a meaning to it

As I see XYZ, the faster way (3♦) is the "game strength only" equivalent of the slower "slammish" way (2NT 3♣ 3♦).
Surely this is better than leaving it undefined?

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2026-September-09, 16:00, said:

2♥ does not deny 3♠ and shows 4♥ , 'on the way'. I do question the value of showing 4H if you hold 3S but showing the hearts is the standard.

I agree that showing hearts over 2♦ is standard, but I question the choice of East to bid 2♦ in the first place.
Yes it forces to game but it also expresses desire for direction: Partner can hardly make an optimal choice now or later without knowing that we are 5-5 and have/not interest in slam.

[mike777]

Generally after
1X1y1Z

A jump to the three level shows strong slam interest, As such a somewhat rare bid.

Of course XYZ allows you countless ways to modify it. In practice most don't. The memory strain not worth the gain.

After the 1NT rebid and 2D and the 2hearts rebid, the correct auction up to that point,imo, east has a decision.
Rebid 3d and risk a 4d raise or 2NT looking for three card spade support.


After 2H by West and three diamonds by east, West has a tough decision..3nt or 4D


East is bidding 3D for some reason rather than 2NT..

I don't think this hand is all that easy.


Certainly after 3NT by West, east can't jump to 6..the east hand has gotten worse, not better..

[jillybean]

Just because I have a bid available doesn't mean I should assign a meaning to it.

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2026-September-09, 16:41, said:

Generally after
1X1y1Z

A jump to the three level shows strong slam interest, As such a somewhat rare bid.

Of course XYZ allows you countless ways to modify it. In practice most don't. The memory strain not worth the gain.

There are infinite ways to decline XYZ, but my impression is that there is increasing convergence on the idea that all invites go through 2♣ and all jumps to 3 level are GF, with repetition of a major being SI. If you add on the traditional Lebensohl to show slammish two suiters (or sign off in clubs) then it makes sense that the equivalent direct two suiters are game only. Arguably the Lebensohl should show game only and then all 3 level would be SI as you suggest, but that's not how it is played.

[WasWinM]

East didn't listen to the bidding well enough. Partner said he had hearts, and hearts good enough to play in 3N opposite possible shortness. East needs cards outside hearts.

[mike777]

pescetom, on 2026-September-09, 16:54, said:

There are infinite ways to decline XYZ, but my impression is that there is increasing convergence on the idea that all invites go through 2♣ and all jumps to 3 level are GF, with repetition of a major being SI. If you add on the traditional Lebensohl to show slammish two suiters (or sign off in clubs) then it makes sense that the equivalent direct two suiters are game only. Arguably the Lebensohl should show game only and then all 3 level would be SI as you suggest, but that's not how it is played.

I still have no idea what this means.

I would estimate the vast majority in the ACBL do not play any version of XYZ
Many play nothing
Some only play NMF
Some two way NMF
Some xyzNT

I find even trying to teach what I consider 20 to 30 year old basic versions of XYz exhausting.

I have no idea what you play.

[jillybean]

I'm not sure the majority style among ACBL players has any bearing here
— we're not the vast majority of ACBL players, and XYZ has worked well for us.

[Kaitlyn S]

I think both partners bid reasonably. I presume the SK was offside - just chalk it up to bad luck.

Did East want West to bid 3H? This works better if East has a singleton vlub, but if East has the Ax or Axx of clubs West wants to declare and if East has Jx or Jxx of clubs, thus might be your last shot at 3NT.

As for 6D, would West have bid differently with the Axx of clubs instead of Qxx? Maybe East is just looking for a stopper.

[DavidKok]

Here is how I play XYZ on this auction.

1♦-1♠; 1NT-?

• 2♦: GF asking. 5(+)cM or slam interest balanced. Not a 5-5 hand.
  
• 3♦: GF, exactly 4 spades, suggests diamonds as trump suit (shows 4+ diamonds).
  
• 2NT-then-3♦: GF or stronger 5-5 (or longer) spades-diamonds.

2♦ asks, 2NT shows and direct 3♦ is dialogue without interest in opener's major suit lengths.

[apollo1201]

DavidKok, on 2026-September-10, 05:35, said:

Here is how I play XYZ on this auction.

1♦-1♠; 1NT-?

• 2♦: GF asking. 5(+)cM or slam interest balanced. Not a 5-5 hand.
  
• 3♦: GF, exactly 4 spades, suggests diamonds as trump suit (shows 4+ diamonds).
  
• 2NT-then-3♦: GF or stronger 5-5 (or longer) spades-diamonds.

2♦ asks, 2NT shows and direct 3♦ is dialogue without interest in opener's major suit lengths.

Thanks David for the details
Does it mean 2NT is a transfer to 3C, potentially a weak hand that will stop there? While 2C then 3C is encouraging (eg a 4S + 5-6C about 10-11 points?).
How do you propose NT with only 4 spades? 2C then 2NT while 2C then 2S is inv with 5 cards?

[mw64ahw]

Thought I'd try out the bidding in my TW to see if I can avoid the slam.
1♣ - 1♠ GI
1N 12-14 BD - 2♥ tfr <4♥
2♠ 2♠ min. - 3♣ tfr
3♦ 4/5♦ - 3♥ spltr
3N ♥ covered - 4♣ ctrl SI ♦
4♦ even KCs - 4♥ void SI
4N nothing more to contribute contract choice - ?
Now I know I'm missing K♠ and A♣, but can lose a ♣ on A♥. It needs a decision on what will probably be a ♣ lead through me with a slam based on 27hcp. Tough one to call.