[awm]

pescetom, on 2026-July-10, 06:17, said:

We don't have a gadget for strong 4441 hands, which does not cause me to lose sleep (unlike some other system gaps).
My first thought here was 2NT, then "this is too strong", then "no it isn't" for the shape and lack of intermediate texture.

If you open 1♣ then partner responds 1♦, uncontested. Your rebid now?

2♥ (natural GF) is fine for me. Ideally this shows 5♣ but it's a normal sequence for me on a very strong 4414.

[P_Marlowe]

pescetom, on 2026-July-10, 06:17, said:

We don't have a gadget for strong 4441 hands, which does not cause me to lose sleep (unlike some other system gaps).
My first thought here was 2NT, then "this is too strong", then "no it isn't" for the shape and lack of intermediate texture.

If you open 1♣ then partner responds 1♦, uncontested. Your rebid now?

My partner responded 3♠ to 2NT. Is 3NT forced for you and if not do you bid it anyway?

If it is forced, I bid it.

I think 2NT is fine, unless you have art. support, you will have trouble finding a sensible rebid.
We have a way of setting a major in a forcing manner, if p responds in a major, and I dont mean splinter,
but he bids 1D you are toast.

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2026-July-10, 06:38, said:

Interesting. I should have defined our 3♠ response, which is not the same, sorry.
But I don't want to spoil things for those opening 1♣.

Let's suspend the 2NT variant for now and concentrate on what the 1♦ response promises (for me it could be weak with clubs, as well as unlimited diamonds) and how one rebids over that.

How one chooses to open should be influenced by the methods one has available after your various options.

Adam’s point about style is important. Were I to open 1C, then we play transfers and, unless we have club length (as responder) it is very rare that we pass. Our CC says that a response should usually show 3+ hcp, but we’ve responded on 2 in the past. So I’m not afraid of missing game but I choose to show a strong balanced hand because of slam potential. It helps that we have a complex and, I think, pretty good 2N structure, whether after 2C 2D 2N or 2N.

For us 3S forces 3N. It’s unsafe to reject since 3S is not only for some minor slam tries but, more commonly, the only way to reach 3N. 2N 3N is a mild minor slam try, often 54/45 minors with around 10 hcp. We’ve found this to be surprisingly powerful. As responder, with only 54/45 minor shape and roughly 10 hcp it’s dangerous to look for a minor fit absent this agreement since 3N rates to be the best contract most of the time, yet slam can be great opposite major suit controls and a fit. The cost is obvious…having to bid 3S in order to reach 3N will someday allow for an effective lead directing double. It’s bound to happen but it hasn’t so far and I’d estimate we have picked up eight or nine slam swings since we adopted the method.

If we were to bid 1C then partner will bid 1S with most hands that lack a major. That’s a very bad sequence for us…the 1S response makes showing this hand almost impossible. Every method has hands it can’t handle and, for us, this would be one after 1C 1S. I’d force to game but at the cost of distorting my hand (I’d reverse, usually promising 5+ clubs as well as showing a 4 card heart suit and then bid 3N over any ingberman bid).

[mike777]

 pescetom, on 2026-July-10, 06:38, said:

Interesting. I should have defined our 3♠ response, which is not the same, sorry.
But I don't want to spoil things for those opening 1♣.

Let's suspend the 2NT variant for now and concentrate on what the 1♦ response promises (for me it could be weak with clubs, as well as unlimited diamonds) and how one rebids over that.

2H gf
5C and 4H
But I would have opened 2NT
With 3S as minors.

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2026-July-10, 08:03, said:

2H gf
5C and 4H

MP

---

And now?

Assume 3♣ promises non-minimum due to lack of Moderateur/Ingberman or similar.

[mike777]

4nt

natural


4d would be ace asking in clubs


edit

I do not assume 3c is a non-minimum. I made a jump shift not a reverse so that stuff does not apply. A reverse is weaker and nongame force

[jillybean]

---

We have totally misrepresented our hand, 3nt is the only safe option.
4♣ wold be fine if we had the 6th club.

[P_Marlowe]

mike777, on 2026-July-10, 09:37, said:

4nt

natural


4d would be ace asking in clubs


edit

I do not assume 3c is a non-minimum. I made a jump shift not a reverse so that stuff does not apply. A reverse is weaker and nongame force

The main problem is, we have no assurance, that we have a fit.
We showed 5+ clubs and partner will raise with 3+

I would assume, that p with 4diamonds and 4 spades, would show the spade suit,
without 5 diamonds, he may also have made an inv. minor raise, ..., chances are
great, that he has 5 diamonds, but bal. with 5332 besides 54?? ist still possible.

We also play MP.

I guess 3NT is ok, it will be a minimal underbid, ..., a King, but if p has a 4+ club
fit and SI, he will bid again.

[WasWinM]

I am a 1C opener for these reasons: missing 10 card of the HCP type, 3 kings, 3 Queens, and 4 jacks, the expectation is my partner hold one of each, or 6 points. In the event he or she doesn't, the expectation of a perfect minimum is quite low, like 10xxxxx, xx, xxxx, x is quite low. Other than the control cards, this hand has no beef to it, the spots are bad. I prefer the risk of 1C rather than the bulky 2C and 2N although of those I prefer 2N.

[WasWinM]

P_Marlowe, on 2026-July-10, 09:57, said:

The main problem is, we have no assurance, that we have a fit.
We showed 5+ clubs and partner will raise with 3+

I would assume, that p with 4diamonds and 4 spades, would show the spade suit,
without 5 diamonds, he may also have made an inv. minor raise, ..., chances are
great, that he has 5 diamonds, but bal. with 5332 besides 54?? ist still possible.

We also play MP.

I guess 3NT is ok, it will be a minimal underbid, ..., a King, but if p has a 4+ club
fit and SI, he will bid again.

Sonny Moyse would argue with you that you don't have a fit. Maybe not the fit you want but playable.

[Cyberyeti]

I'm staying out of this because it's very possible partner didn't respond 1♦ in our version of this auction, and I need to know what he bids over 1♥.

There are very few hands with 4 clubs where partner responds 1♦ to our 4 card club.

[mikeh]

mike777, on 2026-July-10, 09:37, said:

4nt

natural


4d would be ace asking in clubs


edit

I do not assume 3c is a non-minimum. I made a jump shift not a reverse so that stuff does not apply. A reverse is weaker and nongame force

Imo you should still use ingberman or lebensohl here. It’s not about game…you’ve forced to game. It’s about game or slam, and a 3C, over 2H, should promise mild or better slam interest.

[mikeh]

WasWinM, on 2026-July-10, 10:26, said:

I am a 1C opener for these reasons: missing 10 card of the HCP type, 3 kings, 3 Queens, and 4 jacks, the expectation is my partner hold one of each, or 6 points. In the event he or she doesn't, the expectation of a perfect minimum is quite low, like 10xxxxx, xx, xxxx, x is quite low. Other than the control cards, this hand has no beef to it, the spots are bad. I prefer the risk of 1C rather than the bulky 2C and 2N although of those I prefer 2N.

It’s essential, when weighing options in these situations, to think beyond the first two or even three rounds of bidding.

I’m not saying one should emulate Mike Passell….I have played on teams with him years ago and he chose his bidding decisions (at the end of a power auction) by bidding 7D rather than 7N because he could see a trump squeeze in 7D f he didn’t have 13 top tricks) but while picturing the play during the auction won’t happen often, picturing the auction before starting it is something we all should do on difficult hands. And do NOT just picture auctions tyat may time out well. Picture the responses you don’t want…can I handle them? If not, maybe I should try another opening action.

[WasWinM]

mikeh, on 2026-July-10, 11:25, said:

It’s essential, when weighing options in these situations, to think beyond the first two or even three rounds of bidding.

I’m not saying one should emulate Mike Passell….I have played on teams with him years ago and he chose his bidding decisions (at the end of a power auction) by bidding 7D rather than 7N because he could see a trump squeeze in 7D f he didn’t have 13 top tricks) but while picturing the play during the auction won’t happen often, picturing the auction before starting it is something we all should do on difficult hands. And do NOT just picture auctions tyat may time out well. Picture the responses you don’t want…can I handle them? If not, maybe I should try another opening action.

I played against Mike often, a real nice guy. My second wife used to date him when he lived in Oklahoma City.
As to your statement, the worst that could happen is I languish in 1C when a slam is made that I have no chance to reach. Qxxxxx, x, xx, xxxx or something similar. Question to me is which causes the most problems the most often. Will I get to the wrong game bidding 2C or 2N and how often will I get too high because partner can't visualize this flattish pattern?

Seems to me not a simple question to answer and your experience at high level argues for your ideas, but there is also a modicum of reason in mine.

[awm]

pescetom, on 2026-July-10, 09:34, said:

MP

---

And now?

Assume 3♣ promises non-minimum due to lack of Moderateur/Ingberman or similar.

I'm fine with 3nt here; I've roughly shown the values at this point, especially given I should probably downgrade a little for singleton opposite partner's first bid suit. Partner will know to bid on with a good hand/fit.