[Cyberyeti]

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we have the agreement that all doubles are takeout except...

one of the exceptions is auctions like (1♦)-X-(1♥)-X which is for penalties

but not discussed this specific sort of auction

before I give the hand, what do you think the following bids mean:

X
2♥
2♠
2N

[mikeh]

A logical meaning for 2H might be ‘I have hearts well stopped, game interest in notrump but nothing in diamonds’, hoping to protect west’s diamond holding.

X is takeout but this is a situation depends on specific agreements (which you may not have) or a meta agreement, useful for when specific agreements haven’t been discussed. In my main partnership, the double of 2D is takeout oriented pursuant to our meta agreements.

Plus, on a frequency basis, penalty will be rare. If east has decent diamonds (he need not have a stack, since he can logically hope that west has some diamonds…or was prepared to handle a diamond advance (possibly as high as 3D) over his balancing double but he also needs a heart stack (since west will usually be short in hearts) otherwise NS will surely run to 2H. Thus while using east’s double as takeout means that once in a long while NS escape a penalty, that would require a rare hand type for east. And even then, sometimes west can reopen with a second double.

2S is competitive. Doesn’t promise 5.

2N is modest opening values with hearts well stopped (for a broad definition of well stopped), fewer than 4 spades and a little something (or more)in diamonds. Say something resembling Kxx KQx Qxx Kxxx

[Cyberyeti]

OK, I thought X would be penalties with our meta agreements, how would you adjust the other bids ?

[HardVector]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-March-09, 12:53, said:

OK, I thought X would be penalties with our meta agreements, how would you adjust the other bids ?

2h - takeout for black suits
2s - spades
2n - good/bad? clubs
3c - good clubs?

In this sequence, the whole good/bad thing doesn't have a lot of utility, but if their suit was spades, it would have more use.

[Cyberyeti]

HardVector, on 2026-March-09, 16:43, said:

2h - takeout for black suits
2s - spades
2n - good/bad? clubs
3c - good clubs?

In this sequence, the whole good/bad thing doesn't have a lot of utility, but if their suit was spades, it would have more use.

Does 2♠ show 5 in this scheme ?

The actual vul was EW, so I can see a natural 2N also being sensible trying for 3N rather than doubling them

[Zelandakh]

It seems that the most important hand to be able to show is the one with opening values that had to pass over 1♥, so I don't see any reason not to use a cue for this traditional purpose:

X = optional takeout (enough values for a conversion pass)
2♥ = constructive cue, typically a WNT hand
2♠ = competitive

Then just assign the rest according to your meta rules as otherwise it will get forgotten. Most likely 2NT is either natural (so similar to 2♥ but slightly less stuff) or G/B Lebensohl and any other calls will be obvious after that.

[Cyberyeti]

So what's your choice with K9xx, KQ8x, Q10xx, x

[mikeh]

Seems unlikely that south will pass. So I pass and intend to double 2H.

Once in a while our methods (for every pair and every method) will leave us stuck. I gave up fretting over this years ago. Tweak your system to cater to the rare hand and yiu weaken it on more common hands. C’est la vie.

Edit: given my hand, at mps I bid 2S. I’d only looked at the red suits when I posted above. I’d be more aggressive but the auction suggests nothing is breaking well.

[Cyberyeti]

Partner did bid 2♠, I decided he had 5 of them so we played 4♠ opposite QJ8, xx, AJ, AKQ10xx, spades were 5-1, it could have been made on the lead partner got, but he didn't make it, 2redx is a bloodbath.

[mikeh]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-March-15, 16:21, said:

Partner did bid 2♠, I decided he had 5 of them so we played 4♠ opposite QJ8, xx, AJ, AKQ10xx, spades were 5-1, it could have been made on the lead partner got, but he didn't make it, 2redx is a bloodbath.

If he had five and the values for game, don’t you think he might have overcalled? Surely you could have cuebid along the way and reached the seemingly cold 3N?

[Cyberyeti]

mikeh, on 2026-March-15, 18:27, said:

If he had five and the values for game, don’t you think he might have overcalled? Surely you could have cuebid along the way and reached the seemingly cold 3N?

Values for game is potentially A109xx and out.

I thought 2♥ was 4 spades, 2♠ was 5

[Zelandakh]

Cyberyeti, on 2026-March-15, 16:21, said:

Partner did bid 2♠, I decided he had 5 of them so we played 4♠ opposite QJ8, xx, AJ, AKQ10xx, spades were 5-1, it could have been made on the lead partner got, but he didn't make it, 2redx is a bloodbath.

Let's pull this back to basics for a moment. You wrote that you and your partner have good agreements in most auctions, so let's say you are in second seat and the auction runs (1♥) - X - (2♦) (non-forcing). What would you expect your partner to bid there with the 10hcp 4441 hand you gave earlier? And why do you think that answer would be wrong in this somewhat different, but potentially related, auction? If the answer to the second question includes "transferred king", feel free to adjust the hand slightly to remove that from the equation.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2026-March-16, 18:01, said:

Let's pull this back to basics for a moment. You wrote that you and your partner have good agreements in most auctions, so let's say you are in second seat and the auction runs (1♥) - X - (2♦) (non-forcing). What would you expect your partner to bid there with the 10hcp 4441 hand you gave earlier? And why do you think that answer would be wrong in this somewhat different, but potentially related, auction? If the answer to the second question includes "transferred king", feel free to adjust the hand slightly to remove that from the equation.

Nobody here plays negative free bids, but X would be pens in this auction for us