[struct48]

I've had it with skill level misidentification on BBO. I'm seeing the following way too often from "Intermediate" and "Advanced" players.

* If you respond 2NT to Stayman, you are a beginner.
* If you treat a 4NT raise of 1NT or 2NT as Blackwood, you are a beginner.
* If you make a shutout jump with more than 10 points and/or less than five (or a good four) in support, you are a beginner.
* If you bid again after a weak 2 or preempt when not forced, you are a beginner.
* Unless you are deliberately converting for penalty, if you pass a takeout double, you are a beginner.
* If you lead fourth and not second from a suit headed by a 9 or less, you are a beginner.
* If you have anything like "NEVER lead trump!" in your profile, you are a beginner.
* If you duck winning an honor in a suit contract without a damn good reason, you are a beginner.
* If you do NOT duck winning an honor in no trump without a damn good reason, you are a beginner.
* If you ignore partner's bid suits or lead-directing double without a SUPER damn good reason when making the opening lead, you are a beginner.
* If you have absolutely no idea what a cue bid is, you're not advanced (maybe intermediate).
* If you don't know Texas transfers and when to use them instead of Jacoby, you're not advanced (maybe intermediate).
* If you don't know how to show a void with a Blackwood response, you're not advanced (maybe intermediate).
* If you bid Blackwood with a void, you're a beginner.

Thank you for coming to my TED talk. What other basics did I miss that supposed Intermediate and above players often get wrong on BBO?

[mikeh]

Lol. I doubt that any long time bbo player pays any attention to self rating. My subjective real world impression is that at Regional tournaments, not counting the pros who show up with their clients, maybe 5% of the players are expert. Yet on BBO my subjective guess is that some 20% or more rate as expert. Heck, I’ve seen at least two Canadians claim to be World Class yet I don’t recognize them at all, and I know everyone who’s played for Canada over the last 30 years or so.

Ignore self rating. ‘Private’ is far more likely to indicate a good player than is ‘expert’ or World Class.

The stars by some names should indicate a certain minimum skill level…at least ‘advanced’ and often expert. That doesn’t mean that players without a star are weak: my main partner, for one, has no star but he’s won multiple national titles and is a ‘real’ expert by any definition of the word.

Just note competent players you enjoy playing with or against as ‘friends’. The Dunning-Kruger effect is very pronounced in any self rating scheme.

[struct48]

I understand. I'm not naive to human nature. But I'm frustrated nonetheless. I feel like there should be some sort of enforcement mechanism. Do I really have to start a table every bloody time and wait for it to fill up so I'm certain to have the ability to boot mơrons?

[mikeh]

struct48, on 2026-January-22, 12:15, said:

I understand. I'm not naive to human nature. But I'm frustrated nonetheless. I feel like there should be some sort of enforcement mechanism. Do I really have to start a table every bloody time and wait for it to fill up so I'm certain to have the ability to boot mơrons?

Yes

[struct48]

 mikeh, on 2026-January-22, 12:58, said:

Yes

Nice. 😠

[mycroft]

I wrote a screed. The browser deleted it. That's probably a good thing. Especially as it referenced EHAA twice.

I will remind us all that a real rating system and people "lying" about their level (or "choosing not to", great quotes from BBradley and phil_20686) has been a perennial question, and there just isn't a good answer besides "play 4 hands; if you can't tell who the fish is at the table,..."

I will also remind everybody that there is a Permanent Floating Pickup Pool on BBO, and if you choose to play pickup, you will eventually run into members. That isn't an unalloyed joy.

Some of them are there because they use BBO to play pickup for 30-90 minutes, "just like you". Some of those (shh) aren't really paying full attention to the game either!

But many of them are there because they can't keep a partner.

For some, it's because of their (lack of) bridge skills (or knowledge of conventions, or inability to use them).

But I expect that's a minority.

I give my usual suggestion that players find people they *are* compatible with, who play bridge at the level they want to play at, and join them in leaving the PFPP. It reduces stress and the need to vent. I know, because I followed my advice two Precision partnerships ago.

[jillybean]

* If you don't know how to show a void with a Blackwood response, you're not advanced (maybe intermediate).

[mycroft]

Interestingly enough, I got a (just venting, not "to the TD") complaint from [Real A but-not-pro level player, according to Name Pro] that his Real A level partner bid "one anna void" as two without, and so he bid 7 off a casher. Last week. Beginner?

I played with my "regular" Precision partner in multiple NABC+ events (to our level, which was "one misplay from making day 2") before I found out he was perfect with the asking bids, but didn't know the queen ask after 1430. "Beginner"?

But I still remember the time when some Edmonton Experts (real ones) sat against us, and we had a very slow auction to 4♥, and as I put down my hand, I apologized to the table saying "I'm sorry, I couldn't remember how to bid this hand after 1NT". It was a 4=4=2=3 13 count. "Uh, Stayman?" (The response was, of course, "We don't play Stayman" :-)

[struct48]

 mycroft, on 2026-January-22, 21:45, said:

I will remind us all that a real rating system and people "lying" about their level (or "choosing not to", great quotes from BBradley and phil_20686) has been a perennial question, and there just isn't a good answer besides "play 4 hands; if you can't tell who the fish is at the table,..."

And I will remind us all in turn that nihilistic "Oh well, nothing to be done" responses are counter-productive, naive, and a big reason why school shootings are routine in the US.

INAL, I can't walk into court and claim I'm an attorney without consequences. INAD, I can't open a clinic and claim I'm a physician without consequences.

There are methods, and I know this because what I am is a software engineer. And if I were King, the first thing I'd do is extend the language-policing daemon's* algorithm to auto-boot anyone who claims to play SAYC or 2/1, claims they're above beginner level, and responds to Stayman with 2nt.

*Yes, I've triggered it. I'm human and I make mistakes. But at least I admit those mistakes, unlike many on BBO.

 mycroft, on 2026-January-22, 21:45, said:

I give my usual suggestion that players find people they *are* compatible with, who play bridge at the level they want to play at, and join them in leaving the PFPP. It reduces stress and the need to vent. I know, because I followed my advice two Precision partnerships ago.

That's a brilliant suggestion for those of us who are near a club, are willing to only play when events are scheduled, are capable of doing so because they don't have a job or any other potential conflicts, and have the means to drop ten bucks per ACBL event.

Oh wait, sorry, I forgot that ones partner must also meet these criteria.

And you know what? It can be done, because bless my heart, I was able to do it for a few months… before my partner retired and relocated. But yeah, gee, duh, why don't I just leave the PFPP, I should have thought of that 🙄.

[struct48]

 mycroft, on 2026-January-23, 11:30, said:

Interestingly enough, I got a (just venting, not "to the TD") complaint from [Real A but-not-pro level player, according to Name Pro] that his Real A level partner bid "one anna void" as two without, and so he bid 7 off a casher. Last week. Beginner?

I played with my "regular" Precision partner in multiple NABC+ events (to our level, which was "one misplay from making day 2") before I found out he was perfect with the asking bids, but didn't know the queen ask after 1430. "Beginner"?

You didn't read the fine print. Which is fine, not everyone is about the details.

Bridge is about the details, though. Are you sure you're playing the right game for you?

[DavidKok]

Whatever you do, it is most vital to have a way to feel superior to your partner. Without that, what's the point in playing bridge?

[blackshoe]

A beginner is someone who has just started to play. A novice is someone who lacks experience. A beginner is usually a novice. A novice is probably a beginner, but there are "perpetual novices" who have been playing for fifty years and haven't learned anything.

[mike777]

A good player is someone who makes it to the second day of a national event AND people expect it of you.

An expert is someone who makes it to the third day of a national event AND people expect it of you

[mycroft]

I think making it to the second day of a national event is much higher than "good". "People expect you to" is not only "much higher than 'good'", it's also "have done it frequently, and people know you".(*)

And if what you're looking for is "competent player I can pickup for 8 hands", anybody in that category is "way outa your league, man".

If you *are* that level, and looking for "competent player I can pickup for 8 hands", well, you'll either be perpetually disappointed, or you're even worse at networking than me(!), or you're very very good and people who know that don't want to play with you anyway. I can't think of what would cause that.

(*) I know of a pair that I would, were they to do some regular practise, expect to make day 2 of a national event. You probably don't know either of them. The number who know both, I expect, would be about 1 in a thousand in the ACBL (and probably about 30% more than last year). Clearly, they're not "good".

[mw64ahw]

mike777, on 2026-January-24, 11:21, said:

A good player is someone who makes it to the second day of a national event AND people expect it of you.

An expert is someone who makes it to the third day of a national event AND people expect it of you

I've never failed to get to the third day of a national event, but people don't expect it of me😁

[mike777]

 mycroft, on 2026-January-25, 11:17, said:

I think making it to the second day of a national event is much higher than "good". "People expect you to" is not only "much higher than 'good'", it's also "have done it frequently, and people know you".(*)

And if what you're looking for is "competent player I can pickup for 8 hands", anybody in that category is "way outa your league, man".

If you *are* that level, and looking for "competent player I can pickup for 8 hands", well, you'll either be perpetually disappointed, or you're even worse at networking than me(!), or you're very very good and people who know that don't want to play with you anyway. I can't think of what would cause that.

(*) I know of a pair that I would, were they to do some regular practise, expect to make day 2 of a national event. You probably don't know either of them. The number who know both, I expect, would be about 1 in a thousand in the ACBL (and probably about 30% more than last year). Clearly, they're not "good".

Mycroft I expect you to make it to the second day of your country open national event. When you did I would call you a good player

Mycroft I expect you to make it to the third day of your open national event. When you did I would call you an expert.

When you won that event, you became a champion 🏆

There really are not that many open national events around that are played in and won.

[mycroft]

Oh well done. You've shown the reason you're in the PFPP in spades. I only implied it last time, because I couldn't prove it.

You're a software engineer, you know how to use search(*). Maybe look through my posts on this forum about the Permanent Pickup Pool, and you'll see comments to others about how getting out of it could solve their problems. And who those problems are.

I agree, I can't play bridge at your level. After all, I didn't play as many redoubled contracts last year as you did in the last two weeks.

And the choice is definitely not between "PFPP" and "ACBL club FtF". All I suggested was to find one or two people whose skill you *can* put up with, and who can put up with you, talk to them, and book times to play (against randoms, maybe, but BBO allows "pairs only" tables, and set games are A Thing) with those partners, rather than signing up for whoever the PFPP washes up for your CHO. Email. BBO chat. IRC. MUD. I'm sure a software engineer has solved the problem of communicating with partner "hey, how about thursday same time for an hour?" even if they're not in the same city or time zone.

But yes, there is an issue with that, too.

(*)If you want to know why I feel I can say that with such confidence, well, that *also* is in my history on these forums.

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2026-January-25, 11:31, said:

I've never failed to get to the third day of a national event, but people don't expect it of me😁

We do now very well done.

Just playing in any three day national open event is really impressive.

I am thinking of going for a few days to our upcoming national event.
Have not gone perhaps in thirty years

As a younger kid, money, family or work was an issue.

I just asked one part time partner if they were going the other day. They responded, they were 78, no way...


My younger than me other partner, a retired doctor wants to go however..
She now constantly reminds me she is NOT eligible to play in any senior events. Hmmmm.
Their child and grandchild live there. Pick up teammates and play... I am tempted

We are both below "good" status

As an old kid, I worry about stamina and health.... smile

[mw64ahw]

mike777, on 2026-January-25, 12:14, said:

We do now very well done.

Just playing in any three day national open event is really impressive.

It was said with tongue in cheek given I've never entered a national bridge tournament �� so never failed

However, I do have more than one national title in other events.

[mycroft]

mike777, on 2026-January-25, 11:34, said:

Mycroft I expect you to make it to the second day of your country open national event. When you did I would call you a good player

I've done it once. I know how good I am.

Quote

Mycroft I expect you to make it to the third day of your open national event. When you did I would call you an expert.

I never have done this, almost certainly never will (well, except for the CBF championships, which are at least 3 days round-robin. Not what you meant :-)

I have played with some who have. As I said, I know how good I am. OTOH, if I were to self-set my skill level, it would be "experts play with me", and I'm quite proud of the fact that I could probably get a game (note, *one*) with any of the best players in my province if I asked. (There's two or three I'm unsure of) There's two reasons for that, and I'm quite proud of both of them.