[mw64ahw]

mw64ahw, on 2025-October-09, 00:27, said:

2♣ as natural or balanced, not 2/1 GF
Opener will bid 2♦ if minimum without 4♠.
2♠ then forces game asking opener to describe their hand further and in the process denies certain hand shapes.
Any other reply by opener suggests 14+hcp, excluding most balanced 12-14.

After 1♥-2♣-2♦-2♠
3♣ x5(4x)

Now
3♦ would ask for the minor and get a 3♠ response showing x54x
3♥ upwards sets trumps and with 4.5 mod. losers opposite ~7.5 the grand is in reach.
Planning ahead I choose
3♠ ctrl - 4♣ ctrl & 2+/3♥ honours
4♦ void or AKx(x) - 4♥ no further KCs to show
4♠ even KCs - 4N K♠
6♦ AKJx - 7♥

[pescetom]

 mike777, on 2025-October-11, 17:30, said:

Is your 2/1 style which is shown here pretty common in your country? 2H is 2+, does not confirm trumps?

6d shows first or second round control?

With some variations, it's pretty common among stronger level players. Some will always or usually chicken out in RKCB rather than Turbo, but the lower level control-bidding is fairly standard. Not everyone plays that 3NT after 3S is a "me too" control-bid (some play it as a natural retreat to NT and a few as Turbo or other).

A lot of players are prepared to respond 2H on 2 cards when they aren't sure what strain they want to play in and want to know more about the Opener's hand, or are concerned about assuming NT from their side. Whether or not the system considers 2H as promising 2+ (as mine does) or as nominally promising 3+ but not setting trumps definitively (as the FIGB system does) is a matter of semantics, at this point. Opener is not free to control-bid in hearts and Responder is free to set another strain including NT, unless Opener can rebid hearts fixing trumps.

The 6D control-bid nominally shows first or second level control, which has to be the K given that partner is known to hold the A. But it seemed likely that my Q might make all the difference and I would get no further opportunity to show it.

[DavidKok]

Thank you for the discussion. This is an interesting deal, and there are multiple good opportunities to compare and learn from other styles.
In general I am distrustful of auctions now that both hands are known. I think many people would struggle to get to a slam (yes really), let alone the grand, let alone the best grand. Which obviously is, uh, wait. Which one was it again? 7♦, 7♥ or 7NT?

I'll try to be objective, even having seen both hands. With a shape first approach to 2/1 GF, my auction would be:

1♥-2♣; (1♥ natural, 2♣ 0+ as explained upthread)
2♦-2♥; (2♦ natural, 2♥ showing the SI 3(+)-card raise)
2♠-2NT; (2♠ natural, explained upthread. 2NT natural, showing a balanced hand)
3♣-3♦; (confirming the 3=5=4=1, showing the diamond support)
3♥-3♠; (waiting, spade control - which must be the ace because of the balanced hand)
3NT-4♣; (Nonserious 3NT, club control and slam interest opposite a nonserious hand)
4♥-4♠; (Signoff - I don't like bidding 4♦ Last Train here when partner has shown diamonds, 4♠ shows the diamond control and a hand that doesn't want to take charge)
4NT-5♣; (RKC 1430 for hearts, 4 key cards)
5♥-6♦; (King ask, confirming all key cards and the ♥Q, 6♦ shows the ♦K and denies ♣K and ♠K)
?

And now I'm not sure what South does. There are likely 12 tricks on top - 2 spades, 5 hearts, 1 club and 4 probable diamonds even without knowing of the ♦J. We can likely ruff a club in hand in 7♦, but in the absence of the ♦J this contract might depend on a 3-2 diamond split, which is 'only' 68%. However, there is room to ask for more information with either 6♠ or 7♣. The normal rule is to bid the grand in which you have the jack. The problem is that we can see that partner doesn't have the ♥J as we have it, so we might end in an inferior 7NT when 7♥ was cold. In theory we should use 6♠ and 7♣ to clarify which jack we are looking for, but I don't have such an agreement - only that 6♠ asks for more information (here focusing on the ♠Q) while 7♣ asks for the red suit jack. Blasting 7♥ also isn't safe - if North has a 3=3=4=3 or even 4=3=4=2 we might depend on a black suit sqeeze or finesse for that 13th trick, and that's assuming the diamonds run. I am not sure what I would do here - it's probably with the odds to pass the buck to partner with 6♠, and hope partner can sqeeze out 7♦. Tricky.


It might be fun to consider how it would continue if North decides to take the reins over 4♥:
[..];
4♥-4NT; (RKC 1430 for hearts)
5♣-5♦; (1, asking for the Q)
5♠-6♦; (♥Q + ♠K + neither ♦K nor ♣K, asking for ♦Q);
7♦-? (♦Q)
I did not see this coming and would not have bid this way at the table, but this is much easier!

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2025-October-12, 14:26, said:

Thank you for the discussion. This is an interesting deal, and there are multiple good opportunities to compare and learn from other styles.
In general I am distrustful of auctions now that both hands are known. I think many people would struggle to get to a slam (yes really), let alone the grand, let alone the best grand. Which obviously is, uh, wait. Which one was it again? 7♦, 7♥ or 7NT?

Fully agree that we need to share our 2/1 styles which are many and various.
As for results at the table, about half reached a small slam, very few a red grand and none 7NT (which is just as well, as almost none of the bean counters in 6NT found the overtrick in compression).

DavidKok, on 2025-October-12, 14:26, said:

With a shape first approach to 2/1 GF, my auction would be:

1♥-2♣; (1♥ natural, 2♣ 0+ as explained upthread)
2♦-2♥; (2♦ natural, 2♥ showing the SI 3(+)-card raise)
2♠-2NT; (2♠ natural, explained upthread. 2NT natural, showing a balanced hand)
3♣-3♦; (confirming the 3=5=4=1, showing the diamond support)
3♥-3♠; (waiting, spade control - which must be the ace because of the balanced hand)
3NT-4♣; (Nonserious 3NT, club control and slam interest opposite a nonserious hand)
4♥-4♠; (Signoff - I don't like bidding 4♦ Last Train here when partner has shown diamonds, 4♠ shows the diamond control and a hand that doesn't want to take charge)
4NT-5♣; (RKC 1430 for hearts, 4 key cards)
5♥-6♦; (King ask, confirming all key cards and the ♥Q, 6♦ shows the ♦K and denies ♣K and ♠K)
?

And now I'm not sure what South does. There are likely 12 tricks on top - 2 spades, 5 hearts, 1 club and 4 probable diamonds even without knowing of the ♦J. We can likely ruff a club in hand in 7♦, but in the absence of the ♦J this contract might depend on a 3-2 diamond split, which is 'only' 68%. However, there is room to ask for more information with either 6♠ or 7♣. The normal rule is to bid the grand in which you have the jack. The problem is that we can see that partner doesn't have the ♥J as we have it, so we might end in an inferior 7NT when 7♥ was cold. In theory we should use 6♠ and 7♣ to clarify which jack we are looking for, but I don't have such an agreement - only that 6♠ asks for more information (here focusing on the ♠Q) while 7♣ asks for the red suit jack. Blasting 7♥ also isn't safe - if North has a 3=3=4=3 or even 4=3=4=2 we might depend on a black suit sqeeze or finesse for that 13th trick, and that's assuming the diamonds run. I am not sure what I would do here - it's probably with the odds to pass the buck to partner with 6♠, and hope partner can sqeeze out 7♦. Tricky.


It might be fun to consider how it would continue if North decides to take the reins over 4♥:
[..];
4♥-4NT; (RKC 1430 for hearts)
5♣-5♦; (1, asking for the Q)
5♠-6♦; (♥Q + ♠K + neither ♦K nor ♣K, asking for ♦Q);
7♦-? (♦Q)
I did not see this coming and would not have bid this way at the table, but this is much easier!

I admire the disciplined start of your first auction but am not enthusiastic about RKCB with so much space to go. I assume 5♥ is a typo for 5NT.

In your second auction, I was puzzled that 5♠ excludes the minor kings. How do you handle things if partner holds a minor K and ♠K?

[mikeh]

To me, the auction would be trivial. Over 2D you couldn’t get me biddding hearts unless you paid me a LOT of money. We can often get back to hearts later but we lose the diamond suit in virtually every plausible sequence if we don’t bid it now. (I’m discussing a genetic but expert 2/1, not my main partnership methods which don’t shine on this hand…see below).

I’d actually started a long post on this hand several times, but the issues are so complex that I never finished. What makes them complex?

We have two red suits from which we need more information. We are extremely interested in the diamond Queen. We are also interested in the heart K and Queen. We can usually discover the heart king via some keycard work after setting diamonds. But neither red Queen is easy to find if we set the ‘other ‘ red suit as trump.

Hearts scores better than diamonds, but only when yiu take as many tricks in hearts as yiu can in diamonds and it’s trivial to construct hands where 7D is sound but 7H is not. And when 7H is sound, 7N will almost always be at least as good.

Plus we may be able to get to 7N if we set diamonds as trump but not if we set hearts as trump. Why? Because of the diamond queen. North will never be able to count tricks for grand if we support hearts. He has at best Qxxx(x) in diamonds and we’ll never be able to convince him that we hold AKx let alone AKJx and we can’t safely commit to grand absent knowing of the diamond queen. Note that KQJ KQJxx 1098xx void is 1H then 2D, and many might bid 2D on 109xx if 2 N for them promises 2+ clubs…ie a semi balanced or balanced hand. If desperate I’d assume the diamond queen, but I don’t think I need to if I raise diamonds…I can find it.

After 1H 2C 2D 3D north clearly bids 3N.

Now 4H is unmistakably keycard in diamonds if one plays kickback. It is nonsensical to play it as natural, non forcing.

Opener owns to zero keycards via 4N. 5C asks for the queen. Different pairs play different structures here, but in my partnerships we bid 5H showing the queen of diamonds and the heart king.

Responder bids 5N to announce possession of all of the keycards and inviting grand. He denies either black king and is still looking for grand, else he’d have bid 6D.

Opener ‘knows’ the responder has all the aces and the diamond king. He can safely assume 5 hearts…even if partner has the stiff Ace, hearts will run more than 50% of the time. He can assume at least one club ruff in his hand, and surely he rates to score two most of the time. Two top spades, five hearts, club ace, club ruff and four trump in dummy is 13 tricks even with just one ruff. At the same time, he knows that unless responder has the club AK, he’s getting only 12 tricks in notrump. Yes, on the hand he can make 7H due to usually getting a spade ruff in dummy but how can he know that responder isn’t, for example Axx Axx AKx Axxx.

So for me it’s pretty obvious that agreeing diamonds is the most likely route to a good grand. And…I wish I’d posted earlier to avoid the inference that I’m making this up because I know the hands, I would have thought about the red queen and bidding grand issues after 2D….and while on some plausible north hands the auction might have left unresolved issues, I am confident that I’d have bid 2D.

Btw, one reason my drafts were so long is that there is a real issue as to how responder raises hearts. Part of that is ‘what would 2S mean’ had the auction gone 1H 2C 2D 2S

If it’s natural, then what does responder bid with Jxx Ax AJx AKxxx? No spade stopper, no four card spade suit, clubs not rebiddable, so 2H. Those players have to bid 3H over 2D, destroying a full level of bidding space. Even some who play 2H as 3 hearts would use a jump raise as slamming.

Anyway, as David said in at least two posts, this hand has lots of things that could happen. Ironically, in my main partnership we’d struggle to even reach diamonds! We play 1M 2C 2D as simply denying a 6+ major.

We might….just might…back into it after responder bids 2H, which for us is game force in hearts. 2N then 3D then 4D is possible but now we don’t have kickback available. We do have 6 card keycard after 1H 2C 2D 2H 2N 3D 4D 4H 4S, where 4S is kickback, but I’m really stretching to make this look even remotely plausible. I think we’d play 6H.

[DavidKok]

pescetom, on 2025-October-12, 16:18, said:

I assume 5♥ is a typo for 5NT.

It is not. With 4 (or more) key cards known by the partnership I re-use the trump suit at the 5-level as an asking bid, which are ordered by priority. We're never stopping below slam with at least 4 key cards combined - if that's not enough, neither side had enough to bid Blackwood.
The full structure over 5♣ here is:

• 5♦: Asks for the ♥Q. Without it, partner bids 5♥ (the trump suit). With it, partner zooms to the king-showing answer (see below).
  
• 5♥: King ask.
  
• 5♠: Asks for third round spade control.
  
• 5NT: Asks for generic extras. Not interested in kings or queens (apparently) - often looking for intermediates to run a suit, or an extra length trick, or extra ruffing value based on undisclosed shape.
  
• 6♣: Asks for a third round club control.
  
• 6♦: Asks for a third round diamond control.

Whether the third round control must be the queen or may be a doubleton depends on the auction leading up to RKC.

pescetom, on 2025-October-12, 16:18, said:

In your second auction, I was puzzled that 5♠ excludes the minor kings. How do you handle things if partner holds a minor K and ♠K?

I show specific coded kings. The scheme here is:

• 5♠: Exactly ♠K or exactly ♦K+♣K.
  
• 5NT: No kings.
  
• 6♣: Exactly ♣K or exactly ♠K+♦K.
  
• 6♦: Exactly ♦K or exactly ♣K+♠K.
  
• 6♥+: All kings.

Since we hold the ♦K ourselves there is never any ambiguity (and, in fact, the only time there could be ambiguity is if we ask without holding any kings - and even then it's usually clear from earlier control bids or hand ranges). In situations where we don't have enough space we instead use 5NT to show the answer that wouldn't fit, and 6-of-the-trump-suit shows 0. With all kings, go past 6-of-the-trump-suit but not 6NT.