[pescetom]

Curious to hear opinions about North's call here.
If you would bid 2♥, what is the minimum change to the hand to make you Pass?

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[DavidKok]

I would bid 2♥.

A long explanation:
When partner doubles 1♦ they have one of three hand types:

• A hand with short diamonds, at least 4-3 in the majors either way, no own suit to bid, and around 10+ hcp.
  
• A hand so strong (typically 18+ unbal or 19+ bal for me, to give approximate ranges) that partner will bid again.
  
• A strong NT (15-18 here) without a diamond stopper.

Opposite the first hand type we want to compete to at least 2♥. We have an 8(+)-card fit, bidding 2-over-2 is very often right.
Opposite the second hand type we aren't taking away any space by bidding 2♥, and getting our suit in is good. Furthermore, partner is capable of counting to 40. Let's assume partner has the double-then-bid-again hand, say, 18+ hcp. Furthermore, West has a simple raise (say, 5+ hcp) and the opening in third seat can be a little light - let's say 10+. That doesn't leave a whole lot for us (in fact, it leaves at most 7, and on average closer to 3-4). Furthermore, East likely can't re-raise, since we actually hold four diamonds. So what's the likely continuation? (P)-P-(1♦)-X; (2♦)-2♥-(P)-? and South sees a strong hand with short diamonds, but the opponents didn't brave the 3-level. Therefore they will play us, North, for... approximately 5-7 hcp, 5♥ and 4♦. Seems pretty good.
The third hand type is not possible thanks to the diamond raise - we have four, if partner is balanced they have at least two, so the opponents can't raise the suit. However, change our hand a little so this option is possible, and now we might still bid 2♥. With this hand partner will know to pass(!) with a doubleton in hearts, identifying the misfit and stopping low on shape. The point counting argument still applies, even if the ranges are a little different. It's only when we hit partner's long suit - and for me, that means 4 cards here - that partner may raise again.

There is a risk of getting too high if South has the first type of takeout double but with extra's - say, a 4=3=1=5 15-count that doubled rather than bid 2♣ (which I do not prefer, but both styles have plenty of followers). Here you might have gained by passing, waiting for a second double, and then bidding 2♥. Notice the constraints this places on the hcp distribution around the table. If, instead, opener is a little stronger and partner a little weaker, passing instead of bidding 2♥ may well be the end of the auction. For that reason I prefer to bid relatively light here, and on shape - it is rare that partner is faced with a tough decision.

Summarising: I play 2♥ here as wide-ranging, possibly a four card suit, and a desire to play rather than defend. Since partner has already clarified their hand to a solid degree, and the opponents' auction gives us valuable information, the lack of length or strength information rarely causes a problem for the doubler. This gives advancer the freedom to act on a wider range of hands.

I will say that on Cuebids, where the 2♦ raise shows 0+ hcp with no upper limit and is not forcing (but in practice seems to be in the 0-3 range most of the time), this auction can be more troublesome. Here both North and South often have undisclosed values, and sorting this out is difficult. That being said I prefer to take my losses on Cuebids and score at the table, rather than the other way around.

[WasWinM]

Given that RHO will typically hold 5 diamonds for the 2D call, that leaves opener with a 4432 hand pattern. I think on this particular hand I prefer defending to playing hearts with a known 4-1 break.

[akwoo]

I don't know why you think RHO will typically hold 5 diamonds; I raise to 2♦ on almost any hand with 4 diamonds and no major.

Declaring on a 4-1 break is rarely worse than defending against 4-1 in a suit where you have the honors.

As long as we're not red at MPs, I'm bidding 2H, and I would do so on 32 65432 5432 32. Partner does get to object, but that's the style I prefer.

[mike777]

An excellent thread to discuss competitive vs constructive auctions.

No minimum, less than zero

Clear 2H,

[helene_t]

It is one of those hands where I would claim to be passing on a forum but might well bid at the table.

Good question, btw. It comes up very often and I always wonder if partner expects more from a freebid.

[mw64ahw]

This is a hand that's on the cusp of constructive/competitive with the slant towards constructive. With 5♥ opposite an opening takeout bid 2♥ seems de rigueur

[pescetom]

WasWinM, on 2025-September-21, 14:45, said:

Given that RHO will typically hold 5 diamonds for the 2D call, that leaves opener with a 4432 hand pattern.

You may have missed that the 1D opening promised 4+ cards. In that case I think it's automatic to respond 2D with 4 cards, if anything the question is whether one bids a competitive 3D with 5 cards (assume not here).

[DavidKok]

A lot of natural 5cM systems are really '5543' systems: 1♠ shows 5(+), 1♥ shows 5(+), 1♦ shows 4(+), 1♣ shows 3(+), and 4=4=3=2 outside of the NT range has to be tacked on somewhere. In my view it is silly to then build the system, especially the competitive auctions, around the 4=4=3=2 shape especially.¹ Instead I would raise the majors with 3, the diamonds with 4, and the clubs with 5 regardless of where this hand goes. I think the main exceptions are 'better minor', where with 3-3 in the minors opener may at their discretion choose 1♦ rather than 1♣, and 'balanced club', where many balanced hands are taken out of 1♦ and put in 1♣ even if the diamonds are longer.
It is also worth pointing out that the takeout double drastically reduces the chances that opener has a 4=4=3=2, if that hand type were included in 1♦. Even if you might worry about this in a vacuum, it is a poor idea to fail to raise because of a rare slight exception where it might be wrong. Support with support!


¹Some regulators make a lot of fuss about a "can be 2" 1♣ opening, which is one argument for putting the hand type in 1♦. However, if 4=4=3=2 is the only hand type that opens 1♣ on a doubleton, it really does not matter, and it is wise both as opponents and as responder to ignore the possibility.

[WasWinM]

pescetom, on 2025-September-22, 06:04, said:

wo
You may have missed that the 1D opening promised 4+ cards. In that case I think it's automatic to respond 2D with 4 cards, if anything the question is whether one bids a competitive 3D with 5 cards (assume not here).

Thanks. I did not realize the diamonds were at worst 4-4.In that case opene’s shape is not so clear and 2H is admirable.

[pescetom]

Thanks to those who replied here, in particular Davidkok who gave us all a lot of food for thought.

As Helene_t said it is always difficult to evaluate what is necessary to make a free bid, it doesn't help that the contexts are so varied and so little discussed in text books mainly focussed on constructive auctions. I have seen articles about takeout double suggesting 5+ HCP or similar in this case, but clearly that is a rough guide at best. I can see now that in the context of this auction much less is needed to bid 2♥.